Is it unlawful or just unsafe?

[Wendy]

I grew up in the 50s-60s and we did a lot of things that didn't kill us. But that doesn't make them any less stupid or dangerous. We rode in the back of pickup trucks. We didn't even know what a child carseat was. We didn't wipe the cutting board with bleach after cutting up chicken. We didn't have automatic cut-off switches on the lawn mower. Did we survive? Apparently so.

Now, I can't include wearing seat belts because we ALWAYS wore seatbelts. Dad installed them in all our cars and no car started moving until we had those belts on.

And back to the original questions, "Is it unlawful or just unsafe?" My answer would be that driving or riding in a moving vehicle without wearing your seatbelt is unlawful in most places, unsafe in almost all circumstances and just plain stupid.

thinkerbell, I agree with your #2 comment. Also #1 but if I bought an older motorhome with no seat belts, I'd have them installed.  #3, see above.

Wendy

 

[Carl L]

I grew up in the 70's laying in the back of a station wagon and coloring for most of the across-country trips we made. I also ate candy cigarettes and listened to KC and the Sunshine band. I didn't die,...,

It is good to know that our membership does not extend into the hereafter.  That both you and Wendy are here writing indicates you are both survivors.  Those that did not survive do not write here or any place else.  Surviving is a function of skill, luck, and the intelligence to provide for bad luck.  Seat belts are an intelligent provision against bad luck.  The kind of bad luck like a drunk in a SUV crossing four lanes of traffic to land on your front fender before your driver has time to dodge. 

 

[Shayne]

Maybe I should start wearing a helmet in the MH when I get near the FJs.  That could all coincide with when Carl is referring to.  Self Preservation.  You think?

 

[Wendy]

Maybe I should start wearing a helmet in the MH when I get near the FJs.  That could all coincide with when Carl is referring to.  Self Preservation.  You think?

Shayne, I'd advise you to wear a helmet all the time since you seem able to get yourself in trouble anywhere, not just at Flying Js.

 

[Carl L]

Shayne, I'd advise you to wear a helmet all the time since you seem able to get yourself in trouble anywhere, not just at Flying Js.

Two helmets, one on top, the other behind.

 

[Ned]

RVs are not intended to be used as buses.  If they only have 2 seats with belts, then that's all that should be carried when in motion.  In my experience, RV drivers are not always more careful than other drivers, in some cases they're even worse, having little experience with or concern about driving 15 tons of vehicle down the road.  And they don't drive the speed limit any more than auto drivers.  There are exceptions (like us ) and an RV driver will either learn the limitations of him/her and their vehicle or they won't be on the road very long.

In the 50s and 60s, and even the 70s, we didn't have to contend with road rage and the typical belligerent driver that seems to be the norm these days.  Driving was safer then.

 

[thinkerbell]

I see your points and agree that there are definitely more numpties on the road now than there used to be.

Our kids are always buckled in times of weather turbulence, through rough traffic areas, and always through towns when there is stop and go traffic (or any other time we have any concerns). Still, there are times when it's nice to lay down on the open highway in safe conditions and good weather/visibillity and go to sleep when they're wiped out, or to peek out the top cab (it's fun when you're a kid and higher up than the cars in front of you). I agree than an rv isn't a bus, but, shoot. I think if you're a paranoid and pragmatic parent you know when those safe and not so safe times exist. I don't plan to knock off any offspring. My oldest son plans to run for President and he'll need votes.

I understand the concern being put forth and respect all thoughts on this issue, even if I respectfully disagree on certain aspects. 

I also believe folks should wear helmets, but don't think forcing them is a good idea. I'm a civil libertarian. 

BTW, I think you guys are the best, so I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I am vocal, but I always try to be respectful, and I always bring snacks.  ;D

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

and I always bring snacks.

That's what the courts call "redeeming social value" and it excuses a lot of things that might otherwise be found legally objectionable. 

And candor is always welcome here, as long as it is politely and respectfully expressed.

 

[PancakeBill]

Hey, I get to agree with Carl!  That was my point when folks would ask why I bought and wore a bike helmet, we all grew up without them.  We did, but how about the ones that didn't? 

With MC helmets, I posted my feelings earlier.

I am all about choice.  But with choices there are responsiblities.  Don't make a choice you can't back your responsibilities on.

Seatbelts, been wearing them since the 60's.  I installed them in my car. 

You would need to find a pretty old RV to find one without belts. 

 

[Karl]

and I always bring snacks.

Qurious - what do you put into those cookies that makes them special? On the other hand, maybe I don't want to know

While I understand and respect your desire to 'drive and live free', that ignores the other drivers that can turn your free and easy drive into a disaster. You can control your actions (to some extent), but have no control over those of others.

 

[chaajoad]

Interesting discussion ...

I was discussing this with a friend over the weekend and I see the biggest contributor to our declining civility and quality of life as the absence of shame. There just isn't any left. We live in a world where young women are photographed getting out of a car minus underwear and they're asked for their autograph. Athletes make millions and the news has as many stories of their arrests and egotistical behavior as their scoring.

In today's paper, a 20-something young man was part of an article about increasing motorcycle fatalities being part of more bikes on the road. He had very little experience riding but wanted cheap transportation between Seattle and his girlfriend's house in Ellensburg. No one in their right mind would want to regularly ride over Snoqualimie Pass on a cheap anything, but that's another topic. Anyway, he was on this bike, in the dark and couldn't negotiate an unfamiliar curve. With his girlfriend in a car behind him, he flew off the side into trees. Two broken arms, one broken leg and numerous other problems - but he lived. At one point in the article, he basically claimed ignorance that motorcycles were that powerful and something like that could happen.

Instead of being ashamed of his lack of judgment, instead of grateful no one else was injured and he wasn't killed, he pretty much blamed it on outside forces.

Tinker, I like what you write. And I'm betting I'm more like you than not. If we're on a highway with no problems and my kid wants to use the facilities or my wife wants to take a nap - no problem. But if something were to happen, I'd blame ME. Not the manufacturer or the mythical "someone" who should have warned me. I've even told my wife if I die as the result of a true accident - no neglect, just a simple accident - please don't sue.

As for your political beliefs, that's not for this board. But i've never EVER understood the Libertarian POV. In a growing nation of 300 million, the only way it can reasonably work is through a series of negotiated rules and regulations - IMO, at least.

As for MH fokks being more careful drivers:

If there's any doubt I'm as human as the next guy -

We were rolling down a two lane WA highway to make a ferry to BC. Got a late start, the usual. And my speed just crept up on me. Out of nowhere I realized I was doing well over 60 in a 50 mph and there was a car slowing down in front of me. For one second, I thought - I'm going to hit this guy. And I might have, had he taken a few seconds longer to turn. Visions of trying to stop 35 feet of MH as nimbly as Hyundai Sante Fe tightened my stomach and I can still recall that feeling. It will serve me well in the future. But, just as we have a required motorcycle safety test here in WA, maybe we need a mandated RV endorsement on the driver's license.

BTW - I've had motorcycles for literally 35+ years. I had an Ohio MC endorsement. Here in WA, I took the mandated test with 6 other bikers. 4 of us failed, including me. The guy before me actually dumped his Gold Wing in a low speed turn. I went back to that site a bunch of times after hours, running through the course again and again. I passed the second time.

 

[John From Detroit]

==Visions of trying to stop 35 feet of MH as nimbly as Hyundai Sante Fe tightened my stomach and I can still recall that feeling. ==

Many times I've heard how much longer it takes to stop a "Big Rig" than a car

Many times I've done the math

Guess what:  When the brakes lock up the only things that matter are your speed and the condition of the road.

Tires factor out, Number of tires factor out, Weight of the vehicle (Big/small) factors out, The only things that do not factor out are speed and road condition.  And when you are compareing two vehicles on the same stretch of road, road condition factors out

SPEED KILLS

Now: There is a bit more to this.. It can take longer to lock up the brakes on some vehicles, that will add to distance and of course if you are pulling a trailer (or toad) w/o trailer brakes... That really adds to stopping distance since not all wheels will lock up.  When that happens weight IS a factor, big time.

 

[JRickey]

What continues to suprise me is the responce of wearing a seat belt or doing something safer when conditions warrent them.  What most people seem to not identify is that most accidents are caused by the negligence of others.  Most people driving a $80K MH drive with due regard.  It the other party of the wreck that you need to worry about and when it happens its to late.  As for "we didn't do it when we were younger and we survived"....well we/you didn't have half the cars on the road, the drug/alcohol use, total mass of the vehicles and the ability to reach the speeds we do now and the most important.....those ones who didn't make it obviously are not able to voice there opinion so the argument is a little one sided I would say.

 

[scottydl]

What continues to suprise me is the responce of wearing a seat belt or doing something safer when conditions warrent them.  What most people seem to not identify is that most accidents are caused by the negligence of others.

Amen to that!  I am bothered by the idea/defense that people use, regarding non-use of safety devices (seatbelts, helmets, or whatever) because they say "I am a very conscience driver".  You forgot about all the other idiots on the road!  "I wear my seatbelt/helmet at high speeds / in bad weather / when I feel like I need to"  But the UNEXPECTED crashes are the ones that cause the most problems!  Everyone on a plane is going to sit down and buckle up when there's heavy turbulence... duh.    But when the plane seems to be flying along nice and smooth, and then *BAM* it drops 500 feet with no warning and all those milling around are bouncing around like pinballs in less than 1 second.  Vehicle crashes are the same way, you almost never see the worst ones coming (or have time to react to them, even if your brain knows what's about to happen) in time to avoid them.  If you don't want to be safe because you don't want to government to rule your decisions, then fine... but at least be safe so your family members don't have to bury you too early and your children don't have to grow up without a parent.

 

[thinkerbell]

I agree that it is important to take responsibility for one's actions and could never suggest otherwise. I am not sure where litigiousness came into the discussion, but I believe we can agree to disagree regarding the general issue and continue to get along famously.

 

[Clay L]

==Visions of trying to stop 35 feet of MH as nimbly as Hyundai Sante Fe tightened my stomach and I can still recall that feeling. ==

Many times I've heard how much longer it takes to stop a "Big Rig" than a car

Many times I've done the math

Guess what:  When the brakes lock up the only things that matter are your speed and the condition of the road.

Tires factor out, Number of tires factor out, Weight of the vehicle (Big/small) factors out, The only things that do not factor out are speed and road condition.  And when you are compareing two vehicles on the same stretch of road, road condition factors out

SPEED KILLS

Now: There is a bit more to this.. It can take longer to lock up the brakes on some vehicles, that will add to distance and of course if you are pulling a trailer (or toad) w/o trailer brakes... That really adds to stopping distance since not all wheels will lock up.  When that happens weight IS a factor, big time.

You are right, but since minimum stopping distance is achieved just as - but before - the brakes lock and big rigs don't have brakes that can put that much torque on the wheels, weight does begin to play a part - but not as much as most people think.

The real problem is that big rigs don't have the brakes that will stop them as fast as a car.

Take a look at some real world data :

http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/physics/phynet/mechanics/Kinematics/BrakingDistData.html

Vehicle
Average Stopping Distance at 55 mph (includes reaction time)

Passenger car
190 ft.
Tractor-trailer (loaded) with cool brakes
256 ft.
Tractor-trailer (loaded) with hot brakes
430 ft.
Tractor-trailer (empty)
249 ft.
Tractor only (bobtail)
243 ft.

 

[John From Detroit]

True story time here (No matter how careful you are it really don't matter)

My youngest sister is in the hospital for some surgery (She damaged her knee at Basketball Camp,  Should have stuck with Music, I keep telling people MUSIC is the key, sports are the problem but do they listen... Oh well)

She had a roomate (of course)

The Roommate had broken nearly every bone in her body, Arms, Legs, Ribs (Head was undamaged)

Well, the Chaplin (A very nice priest) came by to try and cheer her up (She was very athletic you see and this injury more or less did her serious damage) 

He ask her what she was doing when she got injured,  She would not say so he tried to guess... I told him he'd never guess but he kept trying... I told him not only would he never guess but he would not believe it if she told him.  He seemd to think that was untrue... Finally he was getting desprate so I ask her for permission to tell him.. She granted and I said:

"She was sleeping"  (He replied "I don't believe it")

She was indeed sleeping

In the back of a Winnie

The people driving were very good drivers and were busy going through an intersection WITH THE GREEN LIGHT when a semi truck ignored the red and jumped in bed with her

Now in her case seat belts would not have made a positive difference... It's one of those accidents where they don't help, In fact she was NOT thrown out of bed.

But the fact is, though the drivers were very careful  THEIR seat belts saved THEM from serious injury due to the Semi ignoring the red.. NOTE: I do not know if it was the truck or it's driver who ignored the red (yes a Semi Truck can choose not to stop, I do know how that can happen.  Happened to my brother once... Thankfully he did not run into anyone)

 

[Kevin]

called the state police today to ask about the tow dolley and just had to ask about the seat belt thing, guess what, he really didn't know.. he finally came up with, the front 2 seats must have their belts on, but no one else in the back unless they were under 15 years old, then it went down to 60lbs or less in a child seat. Now let me just say this...I have said time and time again I don't like being told "YOU HAVE TO" yes I know with out laws we would be in a big mess.. I do wear it in wifey's car..mainly because she tells me too, but also that dang dinging sound won't stop unless I do. My old truck..well it's just got lap belts..and from what they tell me, they can be alot worse than nothing at all. In the MH I wear it because it makes me feel more secure in that big ole seat, therefore I drive easier. The big problem wether you wear your selt belt or not, seems to be the other guy.. I mean yes if you make a mistake, fess up to it, but how many times have you driven in your car, truck or bike, or mh, and out of nowhere some idiot does something you wouldn't even think about doing when you were a kid??? that is the problem you can't fix or know when or were they will strike... so with that said...goodnight..kevin

 

[Shayne]

GN  Glad you listen to your wife occasionally.  Been married 53 yrs and continue to error in the wife's mind and I feel like I can't do anything right.  Witnesses appear regularly on this Forum and constantly remind me that I need to wear a Helmet even when sitting in the chair at home.  AM I right Wendy, Ron, Ned, Tom?   LOL  Glad you got the scope on the MH belts.

 

[chaajoad]

John in Detroit -

I can not recall the last time I went through a green light without looking both ways as I approached, never assuming the other driver will stop. I do that EVERY light without fail while on the motorcycle. With that vehicle, I'm really at the mercy of other drivers. Getting T-boned at 15 mph is an inconvenience in my Explorer; it might mean I'd never walk again on my motorcycle.

As I drum into my 9 year old - and it may seem negative - never, ever believe the other driver will do what he/she should.