steve-hazel
Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2007
- Posts
- 8
On the topic of seatbelts can someone tell me, if an RV says it sleep 6, does that mean that there will be 6 seatbelts too? Or not?
Hazel
Hazel
Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
- Thread starter Just Lou
- Start date
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John From Detroit
Well-known member
To Steve or Hazel.. Yes, seat belts = sleeping positions
To Chaajoad: I have seen situtations where one takes a LONG time to clear an intersection... Even got ticketed once because I could not clear an intersection till the vehicle in front of me moved (And did promptly) Cop said I entered on red (I did not)
Judge dismissed the charge..> Cop has since written me more tickets the judge has had to dismiss.
If there is a next time: Well, he has had his last warning, next time I take HIM to court, he won't like that, neither will his boss.
But I can see many situtations where you'd not see a vehicle in the cross street till it's too late
To Chaajoad: I have seen situtations where one takes a LONG time to clear an intersection... Even got ticketed once because I could not clear an intersection till the vehicle in front of me moved (And did promptly) Cop said I entered on red (I did not)
Judge dismissed the charge..> Cop has since written me more tickets the judge has had to dismiss.
If there is a next time: Well, he has had his last warning, next time I take HIM to court, he won't like that, neither will his boss.
But I can see many situtations where you'd not see a vehicle in the cross street till it's too late
thinkerbell
Active member
I agree that it would be bad to assume that just because I have a green and someone else has a red to assume they're going to stop. I don't even do that in my regular vehicle where people tend to drive nicely!
And when my kids are in locations where there are lights in the rv, you can bet your sweet bippie, they're in seatbelts for that very reason.
And when my kids are in locations where there are lights in the rv, you can bet your sweet bippie, they're in seatbelts for that very reason.
tyefighter
Well-known member
I drove tow truck for 4 years, only saw one fatal that was waring the belt. Friend was hit by a semi that didn't see him stopped in the middle of the road in the fog. Friend was ejected from the car and killed, no belt. He always said it made his back hurt to much, doesn't hurt any more. BTW, passenger was fine, some bruising. I started wearing seat belts when I started driving, just felt it was the thing to do.
kevin said:
Unfortunately this can't be farther from the truth. Studies (and personal experience) show that the use of a lap belt (even improperly worn) cause internal injuries to the bowel, bladder, pelvis and if really high, liver( along with more superficail injuries from impact within the compartment, this happens with any type of belt). If you are ejected out of a vehicle with the force needed to cause these types of injuries when restrained then you will more than likely cause the same type of injuries plus spinal injuries, head injuries (closed), any/all of the common chest injuries, plus soft tissue trauma. This is called "multi systems trauma" these are the people that die several days later (if they lived to get to the hospital) in the hospital from multi system failures due to the overall insult to there bodies that can not be reversed with intervention. This is compared to the isolated abdominal injuries seen with lap belts that surgical intervention can intervene. Don't get me wrong the lap belts cause problems but I would rather be alive with problems than dead with problems. I have yet seen a good outcome from someone being ejected but have seen allot (over 10 years worth) of good outcomes (down right miracles) from restraint systems. Once again its not what someone is telling you what to do, its doing what is right for you and your family.
Years ago My wife was driving and hit Black Ice and slide spinning down the Hill and collided with and headache wall over a small Spillway. She was not wearing a seat belt at the time. It tossed her to the passenger side into a fetal position knocking her out. Had she been wearing the belt she would not be alive today. The driveshaft of the car came up thru the drivers seat cutting it in half and penetrated the windshield of the car. This was a Chrysler NewYorker. Thank God she didn't wear the seat belt that day. However with that said We NEVER get into our Cars without buckling up and doubt very much if we ever will.
scottydl
Site Team
kevin said:
"They" are dead wrong. The #1 thing that seatbelts do that prevent injury, is prevent ejection from the vehicle in the event of a crash. A lap belt will do that 100% effectively if worn correctly. True, you may end up with some injuries that would be prevented with a lap/shoulder combo... but at least you'll still be in the car (much safer than getting thrown out and having your own car or another roll right over you, which is what kills many "ejectees"). Keep in mind newer/smarter belts and retractors do much more than just prevent ejection, but back in the day that's all that seatbelt designers really thought about.
John From Detroit
Well-known member
Re the statement about lap only belts being worse than nothing
Nothing could be farther from the truth
I have beein in situtations where a lap belt kept me IN the driver's seat (See some of the stories I've posted up thread about people who fell out of the vehicle, thus causing a fatal accident, I've seen three of those accidents myself)
I've stood on the brakes and had a passenger, properly restrained by the belt NOT hit his head on the windshield
The lap belt makes the most difference. The shoulder belt adds some more safety. Air bags add cost.
Nothing could be farther from the truth
I have beein in situtations where a lap belt kept me IN the driver's seat (See some of the stories I've posted up thread about people who fell out of the vehicle, thus causing a fatal accident, I've seen three of those accidents myself)
I've stood on the brakes and had a passenger, properly restrained by the belt NOT hit his head on the windshield
The lap belt makes the most difference. The shoulder belt adds some more safety. Air bags add cost.
We recently developed an RV Driving Safety Program for RVSEF (Recreation Vehicle Safety & Education Foundation) and found several "interesting" and "confusing" issues related to seat belts, road use laws, and motorhomes. This program was developed with assistance from NHTSA, The National Safety Council, The DOT, Iowa Highway Patrol, and several National organizations.
The first thing to understand is that a motorhome, anything over 10,000# and under 26,000# is not recognized in road use laws! When we researched speed limits, driving with propane, and other regulations, we were told the laws were written for cars, trucks, and commercial vehicles over 26,000#. A motorhome is never quantified and is left to the interpretation of the state and officers within that state.
Second, RVIA (Recreation Vehicle Industry Association) is one of the few governing bodies that regulates motorhomes. According to their requirements, motorhomes must have seat belt capacity for the listed sleeping capacity. Some manufacturers list their sleeping capacity as 2, therefore only driver and passenger belts are installed. This reduces the liability of occupants getting injured and suing. ONLY REDUCES! It's amazing what happens in lawsuits.
Seat Belt Laws...Every state has their own useage laws, and every law enforcement officer has his/her interpretation of that law! Many states only require belts in the front seat, however, WI requires all passengers to be belted. As I stated before, motorhomes are not specifically listed and therefore fall under interpretation. I was deposed in 2 multi-million dollar lawsuits were the driver was not wearing a seatbelt and the lawyers made this VERY clear! Which brings me to my next point...WEAR YOUR SEATBELT! The driver was not wearing his seatbelt and was driving on an interstate in CA with his grand daughter sitting either on his lap or on the doghouse. A truck sideswiped him and he over-corrected, hit the center pilons, and turned over on the driver's side throwing him out the door. He was killed, the grand daughter lost a leg, and the others in the vehicle were injured but survived. I learned an awful lot about seatbelts during these trials. The estate sued the motorhome manufacturer because they advertised the unit was built so strong you didn't need belts. It had a solid steel front cage, perimeter steel, and unibody construction. They won $4 million because all the brochure photography did not show seatbelts. They were all tucked under the cushions to look pretty!
It's your decision, however, here is what I learned about seatbelts. According to the National Safety Council, seatbelts reduce fatal injury for passengers in a car by 45%. There are three crashes that take place in a collision
1. Vehicle impact - usually takes only 1/10th of a second
2. Human impact - occupant hitting the steering wheel or dash
3. Internal impact - organs moving forward and hitting other organs or skeleton
Various parts of the body can absorb different amounts of energy without injury. That is why seatbelts are designed to be positioned over the strongest parts.
Child restraints are another issue in a motorhome. To be properly secure, a childseat must be installed in a "fixed" forward facing seat. Most motorhomes do not have a place for them, unless they have a booth dinette.
Seatbelts also keep you in the seat as stated in an earlier post. In your car, you are more likely to be "cocooned" in a bucket seat with armrests, counsels, etc. In a MH you are often on top of the pedestal seat and can be thrown off easily.
In a MH, the initial impact doesn't cause the greatest injury, it's secondary, you hitting something, or something hitting you. Remember, anything not secure in the unit becomes a missle, so take down the picture of kids, the porcelin collectibles, and even put away the tissue box. The Iowa Highway Patrol has a documented case of a woman being knocked unconsious during an accident by the tissue box flying from the back window and the corner hitting her head at just the right/or wrong angle.
The first thing to understand is that a motorhome, anything over 10,000# and under 26,000# is not recognized in road use laws! When we researched speed limits, driving with propane, and other regulations, we were told the laws were written for cars, trucks, and commercial vehicles over 26,000#. A motorhome is never quantified and is left to the interpretation of the state and officers within that state.
Second, RVIA (Recreation Vehicle Industry Association) is one of the few governing bodies that regulates motorhomes. According to their requirements, motorhomes must have seat belt capacity for the listed sleeping capacity. Some manufacturers list their sleeping capacity as 2, therefore only driver and passenger belts are installed. This reduces the liability of occupants getting injured and suing. ONLY REDUCES! It's amazing what happens in lawsuits.
Seat Belt Laws...Every state has their own useage laws, and every law enforcement officer has his/her interpretation of that law! Many states only require belts in the front seat, however, WI requires all passengers to be belted. As I stated before, motorhomes are not specifically listed and therefore fall under interpretation. I was deposed in 2 multi-million dollar lawsuits were the driver was not wearing a seatbelt and the lawyers made this VERY clear! Which brings me to my next point...WEAR YOUR SEATBELT! The driver was not wearing his seatbelt and was driving on an interstate in CA with his grand daughter sitting either on his lap or on the doghouse. A truck sideswiped him and he over-corrected, hit the center pilons, and turned over on the driver's side throwing him out the door. He was killed, the grand daughter lost a leg, and the others in the vehicle were injured but survived. I learned an awful lot about seatbelts during these trials. The estate sued the motorhome manufacturer because they advertised the unit was built so strong you didn't need belts. It had a solid steel front cage, perimeter steel, and unibody construction. They won $4 million because all the brochure photography did not show seatbelts. They were all tucked under the cushions to look pretty!
It's your decision, however, here is what I learned about seatbelts. According to the National Safety Council, seatbelts reduce fatal injury for passengers in a car by 45%. There are three crashes that take place in a collision
1. Vehicle impact - usually takes only 1/10th of a second
2. Human impact - occupant hitting the steering wheel or dash
3. Internal impact - organs moving forward and hitting other organs or skeleton
Various parts of the body can absorb different amounts of energy without injury. That is why seatbelts are designed to be positioned over the strongest parts.
Child restraints are another issue in a motorhome. To be properly secure, a childseat must be installed in a "fixed" forward facing seat. Most motorhomes do not have a place for them, unless they have a booth dinette.
Seatbelts also keep you in the seat as stated in an earlier post. In your car, you are more likely to be "cocooned" in a bucket seat with armrests, counsels, etc. In a MH you are often on top of the pedestal seat and can be thrown off easily.
In a MH, the initial impact doesn't cause the greatest injury, it's secondary, you hitting something, or something hitting you. Remember, anything not secure in the unit becomes a missle, so take down the picture of kids, the porcelin collectibles, and even put away the tissue box. The Iowa Highway Patrol has a documented case of a woman being knocked unconsious during an accident by the tissue box flying from the back window and the corner hitting her head at just the right/or wrong angle.
scottydl
Site Team
dsolberg, that is the best information I have EVER seen on this topic, EVER! THANK YOU. Bottom line is, laws can be different or at least perceived differently depending on where you are. But seatbelts will keep you much safer regardless of where you are, or even the type of motorhome you are within.
John From Detroit
Well-known member
I've said this before but I don't recall if I put it in this thread.
I've seen far too many accidents (One is too many, and I've seen way more than that) where the survivor had a seat belt on, the deceased did not. Or the person with no or very minor (Band aid level) injuries was belted, and the person in the EMS was not, or both (One accident had 3 people, One left in a body bag, one in an ambulance, The one with the seat belt, WALKED away. (Well, road in the police car more than likely, courtesy transport)
I've seen accidents that happened because someone was not belted, would not have even happened if they had been belted
I've not been in accidents where I'm 100% convinced I would have been, save for the belt (I am so sold on seat belts that in my first car I bought and installed them)
Lots of evidence show belts save lives.
Air bags on the other hand I prefer to avoid, I think they cause problems. Though I'm fairly happy to say I've not had the chance to test that personally.. Came close once (Was not driving) but she managed to keep it between the imaginary fences (There was no fence, there was also no shoulder. A recent cartoon describes it fairly well (BC) I should just provide a link to it but Well,, Here it is: BC, A journy of a thousand feet Had she not kept it on the road, That's not far from the scene. At least she used the car's best safety device following that turn... The accelerator pedal... (The less you press the safer it is)
I've seen far too many accidents (One is too many, and I've seen way more than that) where the survivor had a seat belt on, the deceased did not. Or the person with no or very minor (Band aid level) injuries was belted, and the person in the EMS was not, or both (One accident had 3 people, One left in a body bag, one in an ambulance, The one with the seat belt, WALKED away. (Well, road in the police car more than likely, courtesy transport)
I've seen accidents that happened because someone was not belted, would not have even happened if they had been belted
I've not been in accidents where I'm 100% convinced I would have been, save for the belt (I am so sold on seat belts that in my first car I bought and installed them)
Lots of evidence show belts save lives.
Air bags on the other hand I prefer to avoid, I think they cause problems. Though I'm fairly happy to say I've not had the chance to test that personally.. Came close once (Was not driving) but she managed to keep it between the imaginary fences (There was no fence, there was also no shoulder. A recent cartoon describes it fairly well (BC) I should just provide a link to it but Well,, Here it is: BC, A journy of a thousand feet Had she not kept it on the road, That's not far from the scene. At least she used the car's best safety device following that turn... The accelerator pedal... (The less you press the safer it is)
Keep in mind...motorhome, or at least class A motorhomes, don't have airbags! As I stated earlier, motorhomes are not mandated like automobiles. Some units still only offer lap belts! We did not get fuel injected engines and subsequently unleaded fuel engines until 1990 when Ford came into the class A market. Autos had them back in 1974.
As for airbags in motorhomes, can you imagine the size pump needed to fill a bag in 1/10th of a second to protect someone in a 102.5" wide vehicle with a windshield height of 5 feet? It would be better to bring back the overhead spring loaded bed...at least the matress would fall down quicker! And to think I used to hate that?
One last point on airbags, the ones in your car and tow vehicles. It is now recommended to place your hands at 3 and 9 o'clock vs. the old 10 & 2. No, it's not so you'll get to the campground an hour earlier (couldn't resist) rather, with the airbags in the steering wheel, if one is deployed, they are designed more vertical, meaning less bag or an indentation on the sides. If your hands are at 10 & 2, an airbag can blow your hands off the wheel, and most likely dislocate your shoulders.
As for airbags in motorhomes, can you imagine the size pump needed to fill a bag in 1/10th of a second to protect someone in a 102.5" wide vehicle with a windshield height of 5 feet? It would be better to bring back the overhead spring loaded bed...at least the matress would fall down quicker! And to think I used to hate that?
One last point on airbags, the ones in your car and tow vehicles. It is now recommended to place your hands at 3 and 9 o'clock vs. the old 10 & 2. No, it's not so you'll get to the campground an hour earlier (couldn't resist) rather, with the airbags in the steering wheel, if one is deployed, they are designed more vertical, meaning less bag or an indentation on the sides. If your hands are at 10 & 2, an airbag can blow your hands off the wheel, and most likely dislocate your shoulders.
Kevin
Well-known member
My mh weighs 32,000 lbs so what does that fall under???
2nd any one can sue any one for anything. Case and point.. man sues neighbor, because the neighbor's dog bites him..he wins $14,000 dollars, problem is...he was in the neighbors back yard beating the dog with a stick...UH???? save us all shoot a lawyer... Just Joking..kevin
2nd any one can sue any one for anything. Case and point.. man sues neighbor, because the neighbor's dog bites him..he wins $14,000 dollars, problem is...he was in the neighbors back yard beating the dog with a stick...UH???? save us all shoot a lawyer... Just Joking..kevin
Karl
Moderator Emeritus
Just for the record, 'airbags' don't use a pump, but silver azide (AgN3); an explosive, that inflates the bag with nitrogen very quickly!
John From Detroit
Well-known member
Karl said:
Yet another reason I don't like Airbags... Explosive is another way of saying BOMB
scottydl
Site Team
John In Detroit said:
How do you think an internal combustion engine works? Thousands of gasoline explosions every single minute!
Seriously though, the risk of injury from airbags is very low WHEN THEY ARE USED WITH SEATBELTS AS INTENDED. Maybe the early generation one-size-fits-all airbags had some problems, but the systems are getting smarter as far as knowing how fast/hard the airbag should deploy based on the occupants weight, speed of vehicle/collision, etc. Side curtain airbags are a great innovation IMO because they address occupant protection during a side impact (T-bone) crash, largely ignored until recent years... previously cars were only tested and designed for front-end crashes since they are most common.
ArdraF
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2006
- Posts
- 10,695
Thankfully I was wearing a seatbelt back in 1965 when we were stopped by traffic on the freeway on a rainy night. A 16 year old boy rearended us at more than 65 mph and caused a five-car pile-up. My seat came out of its tracks and I would have been thrown through the windshield had the seatbelt not done it's job. I put my seatbelt on as soon as I get in the car.
The Japanese did a study in which they found that unbelted back-seat passengers killed more people in the front seat as they flew forward than were killed from other causes. When I buckle up, everyone else does too or we don't move the car.
Our neighbor down the street who was not wearing her seatbelt was thrown from her sunroof when her car rolled several times. Yes, she died on the scene. People who do not wear seatbelts are high-risk people IMHO.
ArdraF
The Japanese did a study in which they found that unbelted back-seat passengers killed more people in the front seat as they flew forward than were killed from other causes. When I buckle up, everyone else does too or we don't move the car.
Our neighbor down the street who was not wearing her seatbelt was thrown from her sunroof when her car rolled several times. Yes, she died on the scene. People who do not wear seatbelts are high-risk people IMHO.
ArdraF
Airbags aren't the only explosives in your car. Belt pre-tensioners are a explosive charge that tightens up your belt on impact. I'm assuming the new responsive head rests are in the same boat but have no experience with them. Its my option that the airbag was as important to passenger safety today as was the seatbelt when first introduced.
Carl L
Moderator Emeritus
JRickey said:
On the contrary, gasoline is an excellent high explosive at concentrations of around 1:19 with air. All those loverly explosions you see in movies involve gasoline. Poisonous, highly flammable and explosive -- great stuff.
