This 5th wheel towing stuff is driving me nuts LOL! help needed

[steveblonde]

Steve,

I do not wish to argue because I respect your experience and expertise.  You are very correct that the really important numbers are GVWR, GCVWR and rear axle GAW.  I am sure you have done due diligence and weighed your rig.  Your pin wt is only about 17%, which is well below average for a toy hauler.  The truck weight sounds low, but again, I am sure you have weighed it and use actual numbers.  I am very happy your weights are all within legal limits.  Do Canadian weights get discounted like other things? ;D ;D

my pin weight is 22% of DRY that's all that matters any thing else is beyond the control of the manufacturer they cannot tell you how to load your weight this is painfully obvious so please tell me what is YOUR QUESTION sorry but I'm really confussed this topic will never end given  the ambiguity of the your response. i service the oil field i build over 2000 pieces of equipment per year for people like syncrude exxon petrocanada  my number are my life and my income we are going round and round here please clalirify ( not to be rude but maybe im missing something?)

 

[steveblonde]

Only because it's not already complicated enough, I just want to add that a number I pay awfully close attention to is my rear GAWR.  I mean, pretty much all of the trailer load is on that rear axle, right?  So it seems like one could be under the GVWR, but still be exceeding the rear axle rating.  Which means probably also exceeding the rated tire capacity (if using the tire class specified for the truck).  If I have that rong, say something 'cause I'm being way too cautious.

for this exercise GVWR means nothing - to put it into perspective it only means something if you were to have  say a camper or 1000 gallons fuel tanks etc
your rear axle rating comes in to play when you have a loaded truck (slip tanks extra size tool boxes campers etc) for the average tower, full timers, weekend warrior, not an issue BUT COMMERCIAL guys need to pay attention as they come loaded for bear - yes your being cautious but thats not a bad thing - overly cautious ??? in your case no dont worry its all good and in your case the manufacturer of your trailer disributes the weight fairly evenly engineers design the trailer and figure out the best place to put the axles so as to"balance" the trailer for optimum towing capabilty - please remember that this is done by computor models using 1000s of pieces of data so to reduce liability . As a consumer your ASS IS COVERED if it was not theirs is hanging out lol we live in a world of sue now ask later these guys cover themselves on the premise you are a moron and take ZERO ZERO ZERO risk.

 

[grashley]

Steve,

I think we must agree to disagree.  IMHO,  I believe the dry pin weight and dry trailer weight and published curb weight are meaningless.  You see it differently.  IMHO,  I believe the weights that truly matter are the loaded for use weight of the camper, loaded for use pin weight and the loaded for use TV.  That is what is going down the highway.  The TV does not carry a dry pin wt.  It carries a loaded pin wt.  I believe the GVWR and GCVWR apply to a setup as it is actually being towed.  I know you disagree.

I still value your opinions.  Many have been very helpful to me personally.  I hope to one day to have the honor of meeting you in person.  Then you can punch me in the nose. lol

 

[JnHinMT]

Unless you're buying a dually, the only thing you gain with a 3500 over a 2500 is springs, everything else is the same. The physical dimensions of the truck will be the same.

 

[grashley]

Unless you're buying a dually, the only thing you gain with a 3500 over a 2500 is springs, everything else is the same. The physical dimensions of the truck will be the same.

NO !! The carrying capacity changes significantly!! 
Compare the following factory specs for a 2016 F250 and F350 SRW  diesel CC  RB
Spec              F250            F350
GVWR          10,000#      11,500#
Payload        3,100#        3,800#
Rear Axle      6,290#        7,180#
max5er      10,000#        15,000#      ACCORDING TO MY CALCULATIONS  22% PIN WT 
                                                        500# passengers, 200# hitch

GMC, Chevy  and Ram specs are similar

The physical dimensions are the same.  Option packages are essentially identical. 
CARRYING CAPACITY IS VERY DIFFERENT.

 

[steveblonde]

Those specs are for a 3500 single rear wheel there is also a 3500 dual rear wheel same truck totally different lol jnhin is sortof correct of course with a dually you have a wider ass
Lol and the capacity of a srw and a dually are very very different because of wieght distribution but im not sure where the arguement is grash

 

[Mike.C]

There should totally be a separate message board titled "Will my [X] pull/haul/tow a [Y]? ? ?" 

Might sticky a commonly used calculator, or else the mods' preferred calculation method.

Alternatively the mods could just retitle this whole section.  ;D

 

[grashley]

I specified in my reply I was comparing SRW, CC RB diesel trucks.  The dually is indeed a different beast with MUCH more towing capacity.

Compared to the F250, The F350 has 1500# HIGHER GVWR,    700# HIGHER Payload,        890#  HIGHER Rear Axle GWR
Even using 22% pin wt, this computes into 5000# more 5er capacity by my calculations.

That is a BIG difference.  The two trucks are NOT the same.

 

[JnHinMT]

NO !! The carrying capacity changes significantly!! 
Compare the following factory specs for a 2016 F250 and F350 SRW  diesel CC  RB
Spec              F250            F350
GVWR          10,000#      11,500#
Payload        3,100#        3,800#
Rear Axle      6,290#        7,180#
max5er      10,000#        15,000#      ACCORDING TO MY CALCULATIONS  22% PIN WT 
                                                        500# passengers, 200# hitch

GMC, Chevy  and Ram specs are similar

The physical dimensions are the same.  Option packages are essentially identical. 
CARRYING CAPACITY IS VERY DIFFERENT.

That is precisely what I meant by "the only thing you're buying is springs".....AKA increased capacity. The physical SIZE of the truck stays the same. The frame and axle stay the same.
Unless you're buying a DRW in my humble opinion all you are getting with a one ton over a 3/4 ton is a heavier spring pack.
I would put air bags on a 3/4 ton and feel just fine about towing anything with it, that you would tow with a SRW 1-ton.

 

[steveblonde]

"I would put air bags on a 3/4 ton and feel just fine about towing anything with it, that you would tow with a SRW 1-ton." a quote from JnHinMT

somebody else please reply 

 

[steveblonde]

To JnHinMT

spend a $1000 on a full Airbag system with Compressor and Gauges OR spend $1000 on a 3500 over a 2500 and be legal 

 

[grashley]

Numbers like GVWR and GCVWR and max axle weight are LEGAL LIMITS.  While you may never get stopped and scaled, if you are in an accident and found to be overweight, you could be in serious legal and financial trouble. (can you spell LIABILITY?)  Are you a law abiding citizen or one who only obeys laws you like?

 

[lone_star_dsl]

Easy there fellas.  The OP got scared away almost 20 days ago.

 

[lone_star_dsl]

Numbers like GVWR and GCVWR and max axle weight are LEGAL LIMITS.  While you may never get stopped and scaled, if you are in an accident and found to be overweight, you could be in serious legal and financial trouble. (can you spell LIABILITY?)  Are you a law abiding citizen or one who only obeys laws you like?

GVWR and GCWR are not legal numbers.  I ran commercially for many years.  The DOT only cares about your axle ratings, tire ratings, and registered weights. I had a truck going up and down the road at 42,000 lbs for years.  He was always under his tire and axle rating and the truck was registered for 45,000 lbs.  Hundreds of trips through the scales and never a problem.

 

[steveblonde]

GVWR gross vehicle weight rating is 100% legal if im wrong please show me

 

[grashley]

Steve is absolutely correct!! The GVWR IS the registered weight of the truck.  The GVWR on a pickup determines how it is licensed in many states, and determines the maximum load it may legally carry.  That is why most truck manufacturers offer a 9900 GVWR option on a truck otherwise rated at 10,000 GVWR  - cheaper license plate and registration.  I know nothing about how big rigs are regulated, but this is how pickups are regulated.  With that said, I have never seen a private pickup weighed, but Steve has, and he reported the penalties for being above GVWR.

 

[longhaul]

lone star dsl is correct.
  There are no jurisdictions that use the trucks GVWR to determine a trucks legal gross weight.

I've also towed commercially with one ton DRW trucks and heavy GN trailers. I ran in NM/CO/KS/OK/TX/LA/AR/MO for over eleven straight years and over 850k miles. Every states scale house and roadside safety checks and new entrant audits I've been through dot simply doesn't use the truck makers GVWR for how much the truck may legally weigh.
We can register the truck at a GVW equaling the sum of the GAWRs.

On private use trucks in my state we have no weights of any kind to register at.  Registration fees are based on truck age and assessed excise tax based in vehicle purchase price plus a tag fee the drops with age.

  For some enforcement laws see my reply in the "chevys tow ratings" thread.

 

[steveblonde]

https://www.transportation.alberta.ca/4783.htm

This function does not take into consideration the "gross axle weight rating" (GAWR) or the "gross vehicle weight rating" (GVWR) of the vehicle. The owner/operator of the vehicle should ensure that the weight carried is within the manufacturer's rated capacity specifications.

Sorry that says it all. "Manufactures rated capacity specifications "

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

This is a fruitless argument - all the above answers are right some of the time, and none of them are right for all situations. There are many "legal" considerations that apply, ranging from state and federal DOT regulations, local highway & bridge limits, various state vehicle registration weights (which maybe arbitrary or based on GVWR), and the more nebulous world of civil lawsuits that may arise from an accident. A vehicle could be legally registered at some weight but still illegally overweight at some DOT scale, or vice versa. And civil liability "legal" is whatever a clever attorney can convince a jury about, and any manufacturer-issued spec number makes good fodder for their arguments.

An example: here in Florida a pick-up is registered at its GVWR by default, but I can legally set any weight I choose on the registration, either greater or less than GVWR.  If the state ever checked it on the highway and found it over that weight, the owner could be fined for having an improperly titles vehicle, i.e. hadn't paid the required fee for the actual traveling weight. But the same vehicle when checked at a DOT scale is not considered overweight unless its axle or tire ratings have been exceeded - the DOT people don't care about registration fees.

 

[longhaul]

https://www.transportation.alberta.ca/4783.htm

This function does not take into consideration the "gross axle weight rating" (GAWR) or the "gross vehicle weight rating" (GVWR) of the vehicle. The owner/operator of the vehicle should ensure that the weight carried is within the manufacturer's rated capacity specifications.

Sorry that says it all. "Manufactures rated capacity specifications "

  All its saying is  GAWRs or GVWR isn't used in the table.

Now lets look at what other parts of your link says;
"This function calculates the maximum allowable weights as per the Commercial Vehicle Dimension and Weight Regulation of the Traffic Safety Act. Where the information shown on this page is not in agreement with the regulation, the regulation shall prevail."

  Now go to the regulation and safety act and it says in part;
TRAFFIC SAFETY ACT
COMMERCIAL VEHICLE DIMENSION
AND WEIGHT REGULATION

(u) ?gross weight? means
(i) in respect of a single axle of a vehicle, the total
weight that a single axle transmits to a highway;
(ii) in respect of an axle group of a vehicle, the sum of
the weights transmitted to a highway by all of the
axles within the axle group;
(iii) in respect of a tire of a vehicle, the total weight that
the tire transmits to a highway;
(iv) in respect of a vehicle, the total weight of a vehicle
or combination of vehicles calculated as the sum of
the weights transmitted to a highway through each of
the axles; ..

and Alberta weight calculator (transportation.alberta) says much the same;

Gross Vehicle Weight Limits
See Weight Calculator
  Cannot exceed the sum of the maximum
legal axle weights and is subject to
minimum interaxle spacing.
All axle weights are subject to minimum tire size. The maximum weight per tire shall not exceed the lesser of the tire manufacturer?s weight rating or the width of the tire stamped on the sidewall multiplied by 10 kg/mm.

Now we know GVWR isn't used to determine a trucks max  gross weight but rather the trucks tire load rating. Tire load ratings come from the trucks GAWRs.

Many states weight regs also read like this. The code may not say a FAWR or RAWR or GAWR but rather tire load ratings....which come from the trucks axle load rating on the trucks certification placard.