suspension/handling help

[dhblack]

Hello Everyone,
I am needing help with much needed suspension upgrades. This is on our 2009 Winnebago Access 31J.
It's time for tires and I know I cannot do everything at once. I wanted to add Sumo bumpstops. I did not know there are 3 different grades to fit. How do you decide?? I already know steering damper is misaligned, ie U-bolts are not holding it straight. Please give opinions on what to tackle first and best products to use.
Nana needs help. Thanks!

 

[Gene50]

If it?s time for tires - then it?s time for tires.

that is where I would start.  Are you going to go for all of them or just the front or just the back?

And when the tires are mounted then have your suspension inspected and repaired as necessary. That will catch the misalignment on the steering dampener that you mentioned. 

That would include the possibility of a wheel alignment as well.

As for the super Springs/ sumo dampeners and deciding which one you need, you first need to decide what you want them to accomplish for you.

According to the advertising for them,  they offer three different benefits depending on which model that you choose.

.

 

[dhblack]

Hello, thanks for reply. We are going to replace all tires plus spare and to front alignment. Was hoping to add the front sumos then too. Do we need to also do heavy duty steering damper as we get alignment??

 

[Gene50]

You  haven?t identified the mileage on your vehicle so we don?t know whether your tires are in need of replacement because of mileage/wear or because of age.

The steering dampener is neutral in it?s effect on the wheel alignment  angles so unless you are having wander problems from your steering and/or lightness in the spearing effort you may not need a new dampener. But if you do get a new dampener for any reason, a heavy duty version would be the way I would go.

Unless you go with the front sumo springs that are in full contact on both ends or the version that winds onto the coil springs you could probably install the third version (actual bump stop) at any time.

The full contact sumo spring And the coil spring installed sumo model may affect your ride height and thus affect the wheel alignment angles on the front.

I would install those two versions  on the front end, prior to getting a wheel alignment.

 

[dhblack]

Thanks again for reply. Camper has 45,700 miles on it. I think tires are aged out. They are 08, 09 and 10's. Driver's side front is worn on inside ( tilts to inside) so I know it needs alignment. Camper has a lot of play on wheel and it "wanders". I want fresh set all same brand. Right now looking at Michelin ribs but there is a problem finding truck centers to "waste time with a camper". Motorhome dealers around here will barely touch a vehicle they did not sell.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

You don't want to buy tires from an RV dealer, and probably not any chassis work either. Too expensive and typically not highly skilled.

I've not had any problems getting tires and alignment from commercial tire service centers here in Florida. Where are you that you experience this problem?

 

[LarsMac]

For tires, I've had good luck with GCR Tire. They have all size truck and RV tires.
Also , look for a light truck service outfit to work on your chassis. Stay away from RV dealers.

Where are you located?

 

[dhblack]

I'm in middle Georgia. I've called many commercial truck businesses that Have flat out said "we just don't have time to work on campers". There are a few places I've gotten some prices from and the shops are big enough to get in. I'm a little worried about "camper camber/caster" vs regular Ford truck numbers. I'm trying to read up on as much of this stuff as I can.

 

[Gene50]

Since the chassis of your RV is the Ford E450, It has the twin I beam front suspension.

The camber setting is built into the individual Ibeams on each side  at the factory and is set to match hey specific ride height.

As weight is applied to the front axles the front suspension, The ride height decreases and the axle pivots  like a pendulum on its side so the tire will naturally lean inwards. The same thing will happen as the front springs lose their strength and collapse under the normal weight of the vehicle. This can also happen very easily when the vehicle is parked for long periods of time.

The technician who checks your front suspension for wheel alignment will need to measure ride height at the fender lip and also the clearance between the axle bumper  on each side of the vehicle.

It is possible that you may need to replace the springs in order to restore ride height and camber settings.

Castor is the other angle that is the forward or backward tilt of the king pin at the top.

That may or may not be adjustable depending on how the vehicle is set up.

However it is impossible to correctly measure or set any of the wheel alignment angles unless ride height is correct. That includes both caster and camber and also the toe settings of the front wheels.

The other consideration on your vehicle at the mileage that has accumulated is the shock absorbers.

While the shock absorbers do not carry any of the static load of the weight of the vehicle,  they do affect the dynamic loading of the front suspension and the dynamic changes in the front wheel alignment angles as you go down the road and the suspension compensates for the surface of the road.

What all that means is having your wheels aligned without adequate shock absorbers will not prevent tire wear and handling problems that will happen because Of changes in the wheel alignment angles while the vehicle is moving.

 

[dhblack]

Wow, just wow! Now it seems I really need to change gears and start actively screening reviews of some if the closest Truck Centers around here. I've got to find out who knows what they are doing and hope they don't rob me.
Thanks to everyone who replied. This forum is a great help.

 

[RRR]

If it just a wandering issue when you get the alignment done ask for them to get the camber to about 5?. They might say that Ford specs are some where around 3? but insist they get to 5. You might have to get adjustable bushings.

Lots of places won't be able to work on you Class C due to overhead clearances and the alignment rack not being long enough. If you can find an old timer they will know how to do it on level ground and a string. I think I paid $180 to have mine done.

Have you check your tire pressure? Over inflation can cause wandering. Best to get axle weight and use the tire manufacture inflation charts to inflate to their specs. The 2007 E-450 that I had I had to run the rears to maximum inflation pressure (80#) and the front at 65 or 70, can't remember. I constantly ran about 300-500 over weight on the rear. I never could get enough weight transferred to the front. Most C's battle overloading on the rear from day one.

You never mentioned sway problems but...Around the 2008 Ford changed the front sway bar from the ends terminating into rubber bushings in the axle to downlinks. The axle bushings wore out fast. If you have those I would change to Hellwig sway bar. It is bigger and mounts better. You can DIY with basic hand tools. I did the front first and it made such an improvement after the first trip I came home and ordered the rear. sdtrucksprings.com 

 

[X-Roughneck]

Hello Everyone,
I am needing help with much needed suspension upgrades. This is on our 2009 Winnebago Access 31J.
It's time for tires and I know I cannot do everything at once. I wanted to add Sumo bumpstops. I did not know there are 3 different grades to fit. How do you decide?? I already know steering damper is misaligned, ie U-bolts are not holding it straight. Please give opinions on what to tackle first and best products to use.
Nana needs help. Thanks!

DH,

As a FYI, I have ordered my Roadmaster, Rear Sway Bar, RSSC From Stabilizers, Bilstein Shocks, Bolting Hardware Kit (Selected Roadmaster/Bilstein by reading, Opinions), for our 32'5" Winn 2017/30J, Class C.

I am in it for $1500ish + Labor (7-8 hr).  I have no desire or tools to attempt this as a DIY.  I am hoping total damage slightly under $2500. 

Here is the boards chance to tell how me I overpaid.  I support local.  I am getting old, my hands have been busted up for decades.   

Right now I am not happy with the OEM bounce the 32' House does for the E-450 Van Suspension it is mounted on.

I will post my Opinion if it was money well spent.  I won't lie to you if the upgrade sucked cash out of my billfold.  I will give you my unfiltered $0.02.

I will note that a guy on YouTube with Mad DIY skills said of all the Renovation and things he has done to his Class C...the suspension upgrade was the Biggest Payback he felt he has gotten.  This RVTito guy did it from New Flooring, TV Riser, Solar, No Screw Solar mount on panels.  This guy is a hands on guy/

 

[X-Roughneck]

Lots of places won't be able to work on you Class C due to overhead clearances and the alignment rack not being long enough. If you can find an old timer they will know how to do it on level ground and a string. I think I paid $180 to have mine done.

sdtrucksprings.com

Triple R, Alot of good food for thought.  Where is the string guy located?

Ingenuity...I can see the method to his madness.

John 

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

The house on a big Class C, say 30 ft & up, is simply too big for an E450 chassis.  Both too long and too heavy.  You can beef it up and help some per RRR's excellent advice, but I'm skeptical it can ever be good. Folks who want a coach in that size range really ought to be looking at either a Super-C or Class A so that they get a chassis designed to handle the length and weight of the living quarters.  If you can't or won't trade up, prepare to dig deep into your wallet for chassis upgrades.

 

[dhblack]

Thanks for good info guys!
We do have tire pressures at 80# in back and 70# front. Front end does not appear to "toe in" but passenger side front is "straight up", driver's side "tips" in at top, so I thought that's why the wear on inside. I do notice front end rides lower than rear (unloaded). Is this normal? Or, more reason I need front shocks? Going next week to get weight, front, back, each side. Will update. 

 

[Harvard]

On the topic of "wandering" at highway speeds:

Ford ships all E350/E450 cut-aways with identical fixed, non adjustable caster/camber collars, "one size fits all". You can recognize these collars because they are keyed and cannot be rotated. They are marked "F8UA-AA 0+.25" on the passenger side and "E97A-CA +0-0" on the drivers side.

If the RV builder never changed the Ford keyed collars, the typical result is:

If the final RV build is nose down one degree then the runtime caster will PROBABLY be about +3.5 degrees. These units can have a real wandering problem.

If the final RV build is nose level then the runtime caster will PROBABLY be about +4.5 degrees. These units are probably indifferent.

If the final RV build is nose up one degree then the runtime caster will PROBABLY be about +5.5 degrees. These units are probably just fine at highway speeds.

So some RVs have a problem and some do not have a problem.

POPULAR MECHANICS MAY 1973:
START QUOTE:
If too little caster exists, the car will wander and weave,
thus necessitating constant corrections in steering.
END QUOTE:

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Front end does not appear to "toe in" but passenger side front is "straight up", driver's side "tips" in at top, so I thought that's why the wear on inside.

Tipping in/out at the top is called camber.  Tipping inward is called "negative camber".  Yes it causes excessive wear on the innber tire edge.

I do notice front end rides lower than rear (unloaded). Is this normal?

Not unusual, but probably not correct either. A fixed vehicle suspension is usually designed to be more-or-less level at moderate loads, but that's guesswork on the part of the chassis engineer and factory.  When a vehicle is built as an unloaded chassis that later has a heavy "house" added to it, the suspension needs to be re-adjusted to reflect the large weight. That's the responsibility of the final assembly plant that adds the house body and doesn't always get done well.

Or, more reason I need front shocks?

Shocks have nothing to do with ride height or attitude. And rather little to do with ride comfort either. They are there to keep the tires from bouncing too much.

Going next week to get weight, front, back, each side. Will update. 

Good plan.

 

[House Husband]

We owned a 27' class C on a F350 chassis and the chassis was not overloaded or too long. A 31' class C on a F450 is not too big or too long. It was designed by those more knowledgeable than the typical user.

Richard

 

[RRR]

Triple R, Alot of good food for thought.  Where is the string guy located?

Ingenuity...I can see the method to his madness.

John

Aloha, OR. West of Portland 15 miles or so.

 

[RRR]

Thanks for good info guys!
We do have tire pressures at 80# in back and 70# front. Front end does not appear to "toe in" but passenger side front is "straight up", driver's side "tips" in at top, so I thought that's why the wear on inside. I do notice front end rides lower than rear (unloaded). Is this normal? Or, more reason I need front shocks? Going next week to get weight, front, back, each side. Will update.

Mine was low to the front, (2007 Forest River Sunseeker 2860) I routinely raised the front with two 2X8's. Or just looked for a site that was low to the rear.