Am I Being Unreasonable ?

[Ron]

Bill,

One advantage of the $25% refund over what has already been paid would highly discourage the dealer from taking the full payment unless they are confident the coach will be as agreed to.  On the other hand if the dealer gets $4000 down and the sales department agrees to fix or add certain items then there would be a high incentive to present the coach for delivery with all work mods what ever promised completed.

For a proper delivery all department have to be involved from the sales person to the service department to the finance.  You as the salesman my be of the highest integrity and would never promise something you new you could not deliver.  On the other hand the service department has to holds up their end.  If I were the saleman I would keep an eye on things to insure everything is being done in the agreed upon time frame.  It is a group effort, including the sales person being present at the time of delivery.

If a dealership accepts a product that is less than perfect then I would believe the dealer is accepting this less than perfect product based on the incentives promised by the manufacture for the dealer to make it right.  If the dealer does not make it right then IMHO the dealer has already demonstrated their level of integrity as not being very high.

I am sure that you Bill do an excellent job of looking after your customers but you cannot do it all along so you just have to keep an eye on things to help insure everything is as you know it should be.

I think if the dealership had a policy that before delivery the sales person do a walk through to insure all that he promised was accomplished the customer would be much appreciative even if he had to be told the delivery had to be slide and why.  This may not be the most desired thing but it would sure be a lot better and less frustrating to the customer that what Paul experienced.

 

[UK-RV]

Hi Guys

We spent last night dry-camped at Lazydays, our 5th night here, and were at the service desk at 8:05am this morning.

Unfortunately, we have now had to add further paint damage (ill fitting bay door), broken water pump switch and a length of external trim which wont sit in place.

At 1:30pm, 5 hours later, the coach was still parked where we left it - although someone had been in to fix the ceiling hole.

It has now vanished, so hopefully it is being repaired as we speak - but, given that whoever was in there this morning left it in the front parking lot, unlocked with the keys inside the entry door, it could be half-way to Georgia by now.

Unfortunately, it looks like we will be spending a 6th night at Lazydays as it is getting too late to try and get into a campground elsewhere.

Ann-Marie is getting very depressed now - the pleasure of buying our new RV is fading fast.

For her benefit, I don't want to spend Valentines Day at Lazydays !!!

Concerning the condition of the coaches from manufacturers - it is so simple to sort out that I cannot understand the problem.

Lazydays (and any other dealer) should refuse to accept the coach unless it is 100% correct.

If the manufacturer cannot deliver a quality product, then Lazydays should refuse to sell that manufacturers products.

Lazydays would be the RVers hero if they were to take such a strong line with suppliers - imagine the confidence it would give a buyer to know they could buy from a dealer with such high standards and moralilty.

The manufacturer would have to raise their game or Lazydays could take pleasure in advertising the fact they don't sell a product line due to poor quality coaches.

However, if Lazydays decide to accept a badly built coach, and decide to pass on that same badly built coach without putting everything right, they should accept every bit a hassle and bad press that decision brings.

Paul

 

[Tom]

If the manufacturer cannot deliver a quality product, then Lazydays should refuse to sell that manufacturers products. Lazydays would be the RVers hero if they were to take such a strong line with suppliers

Paul, while I empathize 100% with your current situation, reality is that car, RV and boat dealers in the U.S. don't work that way. If they did, they'd be out of business in a hurry. That doesn't mean to say that a large dealerships shouldn't let manufacturers know about their displeasure and that of their customers.

 

[caltex]

Tom,I don't think that you would let this pass without comment:

"The factory prefers this because it is actually cheaper for them to let the dealer repair it than it is for them to implement proper QC procedures and repair at the factory, interrupting the flow from the assembly line."

I am a believer that setting up the work flow and doing the job right the first time usually turns out to be the low cost solution.

 

[UK-RV]

Tom

I would much prefer to be told by the Worlds largest RV dealer that a line of coaches was of such poor build quality that they refused to stock them.

It would give me confidence to know the dealer was only interested in selling decent products.

If the manufacturer was so bad, customers would soon see it and the market would soon vanish - of course, the threat of a boycot by the Worlds largest RV dealer should be enough to get the manufacturer to improve the product.

Anyway, the Lazydays story goes on :-

Now, two weeks after first reporting our chipped windshield - and after Lazydays staff had reported it fixed - we've been told a new windshield is needed. This will take 4 days to arrive, which means we now have to return next week.

Today, we reported a faulty 'water pump' switch located under the overhead cabinets in the bedroom. Lazydays reported the switch was working correctly (they were looking at the engine block heater).

When they came out to look at the switch with us, the 'water pump' labelled switch turned out to be a remote switch for the radio - at least it shows Fleetwood are making stupid mistakes and it's not just Lazydays.

Paul

 

[Tom]

I would much prefer to be told by the Worlds largest RV dealer that a line of coaches was of such poor build quality that they refused to stock them.

It's not going to happen, so don't hold your breath.

 

[Tom]

Robert,

Like you, I'm a believer in doing things right the first time. But we've been somewhat spoiled with high degrees of automation in high volume, high tech companies. OTOH we've both seen more than our share of issues in the recreational boating industry that parallels the RV industry. Both industries turn out nice-looking products but, for the most part, lack many of the necessary disciplines to produce a quality product. I've toured a lot of factories over the years in addition to working in a few, but I shake my head when touring RV and boat factories.

 

[Jeff]

While some RV manufacturers seem to have a better track record than others in general you get what you pay for and price becomes one of the dominating decision makers in RV sales, for example  Newmar's cutting cost by lowering its warranty.

 

[Tom]

Interesting Jeff. If their warranty costs are too high, it would suggest some opportunities for quality/reliabilityimprovement. Hopefully the reliability of Newall's products doesn't decline to match the shorter warranty period.

Robert may recall a discussion we had with an owner of a fleet of trucks some years ago. He was telling us that the warranty on the tractor (as in tractor-trailer) he had just bought was 750,000 miles and he routinely ran his trucks for 1,500,000 miles. There's a guy who couldn't afford to have failures on the road.

 

[BernieD]

While some RV manufacturers seem to have a better track record than others in general you get what you pay for and price becomes one of the dominating decision makers in RV sales, for example  Newmar's cutting cost by lowering its warranty.

From what I have heard, Newmar lowered it's warranty term because the Fleetwood executives recently hired couldn't properly control quality and the dealers were submitting substantial warranty claims, many fraudulent.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

My gripe with Lay Days is that they ask and expect the customer to pay in full & sign the acceptance paperwork BEFORE the customer walk-through/inspection and they make little or no attempt to repair any defects until they are identified in that walk-through.  For that percentage of coaches that have numerous or severe defects, the customer who agrees to that is accepting a defective product and hoping that the Delivery Staff & Service Dept can fix whatever is wrong in about a half day's time and with no prior knowledge of the type of work needed, parts required, etc.  That's a chancy bet, I think.  Even if the customer insists on a PDI before signing the paperwork and paying (as I did), the situation remains much the same - there simply is insufficient  time to deal many types of problems which are, unfortunately, all too common with new RVs. And that leads to the sort of mess that Paul & I & others have been put through trying to get what we paid for, and the acrimony that we see in this thread.

Perhaps Bill can shed some light here, but it is my understanding that at LD the salesman is supposed to do an initial inspection of the rig before notifiying the customer it is ready for delivery.  Assuming this is true, one supposes he would also arrange for defects to be corrected BEFORE the attempted delivery date.  However, it appears that either the inspection is cursory or any needed repairs are left until the day of delivery anyway. Or perhaps both of those are true.

LD knows it is accepting RVs in less than perfect condition and knows that some of them are going to need body work, cabinet work, replacement parts, etc, before being truly acceptable to the buyer.  That they think it is perfectly OK to tell the cusotmer "Too bad we couldn't fix everything today - you will have to come back later"  says a lot about their true attitude towards the customer and their committment to customer satisfaction. And in my opinion what is says is not positive at all.

 

[Ron]

From what I have heard, Newmar lowered it's warranty term because the Fleetwood executives recently hired couldn't properly control quality and the dealers were submitting substantial warranty claims, many fraudulent.

I heard that the reason was the new execs had determined that the warranty losses were eating them up and in order to get control of the hemorrhaging cash flow they reduced the warranty.  guess that is another possibility.  There must have been a reason they hired the new execs in the first place.

 

[Tom]

These comments about Newall Newmar put that brand in a new light. I'd previously been given the impression they produced a quality product but, if they have such high warranty expenses, it's a sign of poor quality.

 

[Ned]

The comments were about Newmar, not Newell.  Newell makes a very highline coach and sells factory direct only.

 

[Tom]

Oops, thanks for the correction Ned. The rest of my comments stand.

 

[Jim Dick]

Gary,

I would imagine all the sales department checks is that the coach appears to be clean. Our sales department never checks for anything else. They assume it is all set when they send the customer out. We try our best to do that and I think we succeed far more frequently than others but we do have a small operation compared to LD or any of the other large dealers. I know for a fact our owner is VERY upset when a delivery is not up to standard and the PDI co-ordinator hears about it!

Most of the sales personnel don't even know where to begin to look for problems unless they actually own a rig. I have had more than one tell me they should come out during one of my orientations so they can learn something. In 10 years I have yet to see that happen!! They are chasing down another sale instead of trying to learn something that could help all of us in future sales.

I still believe the emphasis on all of these large dealerships is on sales and delivery and service are stepchildren to the business.

 

[Ron]

Paul,

Are you still at LD and did they get everything corrected including the windshield?

 

[Smoky]

According to posts made by Newmar reps on the Yahoo Newmar forum, the Fleetwood exec was hired to improve bottom line profit, not cut hemorrhaging costs.  Newmar has some expansion plans, and wanted to increase their cash flow.  The new entry DP Ventanna was the first result of this expansion (aimed at Alpha).  Later this year the resurrected London Aire will return to the market because Newmar wanted to expand the top line (now the Essex) to a true premium level coach. The Londaire prototype is already being shown, and I hope to see it at Pamona.  Pictures of the prototype are available on the web. 

Increased campsites at the factory camping area is another expansion they have mentioned.

Capital management is not an area the Mennonites have background in.  They wanted experience in capital management.  Quality is the forte of the Mennonites, not capital management.  It was a frankly amazing opening of the ranks to admit this and bring in an outsider who did very well at Fleetwood.

Cutting the warranty was a careful decision made in line with this new corporate objective.  There has been nothing wrong with Newmar quality.  In fact, the determination was made to keep quality at the current high level, but improve cash flow by adjusting the warranty to equal the industry standard.  There was, of course, considerable concern on the part of Mennonite management that this might drive customers away.  However, the first six months of the new policy have shown this not to be the case, and customers are equaling last year's production, mainly because they consider the Newmar quality worth more than the 3 year warranty.  Lot's of strife took place on the forums, and admittedly lots of whining.  But the main theme was, "I would rather have quality and a standard warranty than sub quality and a 3 year warranty.  The decision was to reduce warranty time, RATHER than quality, to increase the capital program.

Needless to say I guess, is that I am still happy I got the last Koiuntry Star DP off the assembly line to have a 3 year warranty. 

Incidentaly, Mandalay is the only other coach manufacturer offering a 3 year warranty, but that is not saving them from serious quality problems.

As for Newell, no question they are a high quality coach.  But more than 50% of them are delivered overweight.  When asked why, Newell responded that it was what the customers wanted when they put in their custom orders.  I am not sure of my source on the Newell statement, but I read it just this past week.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

I would imagine all the sales department checks is that the coach appears to be clean. Our sales department never checks for anything else.

I suspect you are right, but in our case the coach was filthy even though the salesman had OKed it for delivery.  If he looked at it at all, he must have been blind.  The interior cleaning person alone logged over 3 hours on our rig at the delivery. There were another couple hours logged for exterior cleaning as well - removing extra caulk that actually ran down the sides of the rig in numerous places.  All this stuff was prominent and easily seen at first glance.

At the dealership where you work, a tech actually does a PRE-delivery inspection before the customer walkthrough, so it probably is OK. From what I was told by the guy who did our walkthrough, that does not appear to be the case at LD. He told me that the only repairs done ahead of time would be those reported/requested by the salesman.  He also said that since I had requested some dealer options to be installed, the coach would have spent time in the service bays getting  those installed, so probably nobody else looked at it in the 3 days between its arrival at LD from the factory and their attempted delivery to me. 

 

[Smoky]

Just saw on the Newmar forum where the 2006 Spartan chassis are at very low inventory at the factory, and they have begun tooling for 2007.  This happened early last year also.

KSDP 35' 0
KSDP 39' 1 

DSDP 38'  1 
DSDP 40'  0 
DSDP 43'  10 

MADP 40'  7 
MADP 41'  0 
MADP 43'  21

EXDP 45'  7


Guess you are OK still if you want the 43 foot Mountain Aire pusher.