Arch Hoagland
Well-known member
This reminds me of an old adage:
"There but for the grace of God, go I"
"There but for the grace of God, go I"
Berkley RV homeless
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Oldgator73
Well-known member
Rene T said:
Short answer is NO.
Gwbeech said:
So sorry about your son but have to disagree with you. Drug and alcohol addiction is absolutely a mental health issue.
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
The "mental illness" debate seems pointless to me. We ALL have our coping mechanisms because we all have various neuroses to live with, pretty much the standard human condition. Some people use chemicals, some bite fingernails, some beat their spouses, some swing a mean golf club, and some bury themselves in work. Among those who choose various chemicals, there are those who manage well, those who over-indulge, and a whole spectrum in between.
I find it laughable that some who openly despise any use of alcohol or pot happily get Ritalin prescriptions for their kids and pop antidepressants or lithium mood-stabilizers each day. As though a prescription makes it OK to be a continuous chemical user.
I'm not denying that the world has a substantial number of people who are not coping well despite heavy use of strong chemicals. Maybe there are more than in past decades, or maybe we just are more aware of them, what with broad media attention and lots of government propaganda.
I find it laughable that some who openly despise any use of alcohol or pot happily get Ritalin prescriptions for their kids and pop antidepressants or lithium mood-stabilizers each day. As though a prescription makes it OK to be a continuous chemical user.
I'm not denying that the world has a substantial number of people who are not coping well despite heavy use of strong chemicals. Maybe there are more than in past decades, or maybe we just are more aware of them, what with broad media attention and lots of government propaganda.
SargeW
Site Team
Well said Gary. And some bury themselves in Social Media where they want to discuss all kinds of topics from guns and politics, to religion and RV's. Some handle it well, and some get downright aggressive and nasty. So to prove your point, there are all kinds of coping mechanisms.
irishtom29
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Gwbeech said:
A choice some people make because they have mental health problems.
garyb1st
Well-known member
There are a lot worse situations than parents giving their kids Ritalin. As an adult with moderate ADD, I've taken Dexadrine, which is similar to Ritalin. It works. But personally I'd rather deal with my ADD than take drugs, so I'm apt to change the subject once in a while. ;D. An interesting thing about amphetamines, used in children with ADD, it doesn't cause the same kinds of highs that non-ADD kids get from their recreational use. In fact IIRC, it was one of the ways they determined if a child actually had ADD.
Molaker
Well-known member
That's a hard call. Are they homeless because they are heroin users or heroin users because they are homeless? My guess is it's a toss up.keymastr said:
garyb1st
Well-known member
keymastr said:
Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to see a survey of the homeless. Maybe the US Census can include a question on Heroin use. Then we'd know for sure what percent are users. Since that's unlikely to happen, we can discuss use and abuse of drugs and continue the circuitous discussion ad nauseam. What we really need to do is identify the root causes. Then maybe we can work toward resolution. But I also think we need to accept the fact that a certain percentage of the population will end up as users regardless. Hopefully considerably less. But what are the root causes? I can think of a few. But the discussion would likely get political pretty quickly.
Isaac-1
Well-known member
With each generation the gateway drug changes, these days our country is facing an opioid crisis much of it due to a medical system that pushed pain killers on people for years causing people to become addicted. I experienced this pain killer pushing by medical professionals first hand in 2010 and 2011,I don't like taking pain killers, I prefer to be alert and in pain vs out of it and numb. In late 2010 I fell and broke my back (split compression fracture of L2), spent 3 nights in the hospital flat on my back with not even a pillow waiting to be fitted for a TLSO (turtle shell) brace that I wore for about 4 months, the lesson from this is don't break your back on a Saturday. Several times each day the doctors and nurses would almost beg me to let them give me a pain pill of some type, I did relent and let them give me a couple in the evenings to let me sleep easier even though my pain level rarely exceeded a 5 or 6 on the pain smiley chart. As chance would have it they gave me Darvocet in the hospital which was pulled off the market by the FDA just a couple of weeks later. The follow up treatment with a spinal specialist, included weekly xrays, monthly CT scans and more pain killer pushing, in this case 7.5mg Percocets. On my first visit I was given a prescription for 30 7.5 mg Percocets with 3 refills, every 2 weeks there after for the next 3-4 months I was asked if I needed a refill. (I think over the 4 months I took about 7 of the pain pills). 6 months later I was diagnosed with a gallbladder issue with complications, and a number of tests, a few minor procedures, and couple of months later I ended up having major abdominal surgery and internal re-plumbing (7 hour surgery, 6 day post op hospital stay, I now have a 12 inch long scar to remember it by) where I was given the fun on demand push button morphine pump for the first 48 hours, that I will admit I used vs being in that level 8-9 pain on the smiley face chart. Again the nurses kept pushing me to take pain pills going so far as to sneak one into my pre-discharge medication even though I told them I did not want one. Then I was sent home with another opioid prescription, this time for 30 10 mg Norcos with 3 refills, of which I think I took about 3 or 4.
Even with just this light taste of opioid I can see where people could easily become addicted to them, there were many days during my extended recovery from breaking my back (it was about a year before I could easily bend down and pick up a light object like dropped keys, and about 3 years before I could lift over 25 pounds without considerable pain) that I could see the strong temptation to take pain killers just to make moderate, but persistent pain go away.
Even with just this light taste of opioid I can see where people could easily become addicted to them, there were many days during my extended recovery from breaking my back (it was about a year before I could easily bend down and pick up a light object like dropped keys, and about 3 years before I could lift over 25 pounds without considerable pain) that I could see the strong temptation to take pain killers just to make moderate, but persistent pain go away.
UTTransplant
Well-known member
I think folks who believe we can get a good survey of homeless just haven?t been on the streets of a major city. There are some folks that are in the same place for long periods, but there is also a large mobile population. Salt Lake City tried very hard to do a census every year, and that took dozens and dozens of volunteers who went out looking for folks. Many refused to give any information, so it was just a count. Others hid from the volunteers. Asking a homeless person if they use heroin is asking them to self incriminate, something I doubt many would do!
I do agree with Isaac that opioids being pushed by the pharmaceutical industry is a big part of it. A person gets hooked on opioids, then discovers pills cost a lot more on the street than heroin, so they go to heroin. That?s what the addiction counselors say.
I do agree with Isaac that opioids being pushed by the pharmaceutical industry is a big part of it. A person gets hooked on opioids, then discovers pills cost a lot more on the street than heroin, so they go to heroin. That?s what the addiction counselors say.
garyb1st
Well-known member
UTTransplant said:
Agree. My post was in jest. My point is we'll never know.
Isaac-1
Well-known member
Another issue in the whole debate is to define homeless, do you count people temporarily living in vehicles, how about those that are living on the streets by choice, or those living in sub-standard housing conditions, or those that move from place to place for a night or two sleeping of the sofa at friends or families places...
I live in a town of about 10,000 people in Louisiana, though we don't have a visible homeless problem like in many major cities, there are some homeless people, many with issues of one type or another.
Over the years I have met and known a few, and seen and heard about others, here are a few examples:
1, A suspected homeless guy that has been around town for the last few years, though I don't recall seeing him in the last few months, he walks up and down a 2-3 mile stretch of the main highway through town pulling a red rolling suitcase with a USMC logo on it. He may have a house, he may not I don't know one thing is sure, it is a testament to the build quality of that suitcase that it has lasted so long, of course he may also be on his 20th matching red USMC suitcase by now too.
2, 10-15 years ago we had a guy who regularly slept in a railroad caboose in a city park, though from what I heard he did own a ran down house of some type with no utilities connected (shack, trailer home, etc.) in the rural area 15 or so miles out of town. He only had a bicycle for transportation (suspended drivers license I think) , worked odd jobs, and his house was too far away from town to commute regularly by bicycle.
3, Similar situations with various small shop keepers sleeping in the back room of their shops vs maintaining a home or apartment as they did not make enough money to pay for both. I know of 3 or 4 similar stories to this, and I don't mean shops with apartments in the back, I mean a storage room with a sofa and a microwave oven and a semi-public toilet, sometimes as a result of divorce where the ex got the house.
4, Various other people living in highly sub standard conditions, without electricity or running water, most recently this spring I was involved with getting some donated furniture to a woman and her 2 small children that were moving into a decrepit house that had belonged to her grand parents in a nearby small community, but had been sitting vacant for much of the last 10 years. She was trying to get out of an abusive relationship, had been living out of a 20 year old car for a few weeks, did not have much money, but was working a part time job when whoever in her family that owns the house but lives out of state offered her the use of the house. When I saw her she was in the process of getting the plumbing fixed enough to get the water turned back on, and had hopes of saving up enough money to get the electricity turned back on in a couple of weeks.
I live in a town of about 10,000 people in Louisiana, though we don't have a visible homeless problem like in many major cities, there are some homeless people, many with issues of one type or another.
Over the years I have met and known a few, and seen and heard about others, here are a few examples:
1, A suspected homeless guy that has been around town for the last few years, though I don't recall seeing him in the last few months, he walks up and down a 2-3 mile stretch of the main highway through town pulling a red rolling suitcase with a USMC logo on it. He may have a house, he may not I don't know one thing is sure, it is a testament to the build quality of that suitcase that it has lasted so long, of course he may also be on his 20th matching red USMC suitcase by now too.
2, 10-15 years ago we had a guy who regularly slept in a railroad caboose in a city park, though from what I heard he did own a ran down house of some type with no utilities connected (shack, trailer home, etc.) in the rural area 15 or so miles out of town. He only had a bicycle for transportation (suspended drivers license I think) , worked odd jobs, and his house was too far away from town to commute regularly by bicycle.
3, Similar situations with various small shop keepers sleeping in the back room of their shops vs maintaining a home or apartment as they did not make enough money to pay for both. I know of 3 or 4 similar stories to this, and I don't mean shops with apartments in the back, I mean a storage room with a sofa and a microwave oven and a semi-public toilet, sometimes as a result of divorce where the ex got the house.
4, Various other people living in highly sub standard conditions, without electricity or running water, most recently this spring I was involved with getting some donated furniture to a woman and her 2 small children that were moving into a decrepit house that had belonged to her grand parents in a nearby small community, but had been sitting vacant for much of the last 10 years. She was trying to get out of an abusive relationship, had been living out of a 20 year old car for a few weeks, did not have much money, but was working a part time job when whoever in her family that owns the house but lives out of state offered her the use of the house. When I saw her she was in the process of getting the plumbing fixed enough to get the water turned back on, and had hopes of saving up enough money to get the electricity turned back on in a couple of weeks.
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Tom
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A variation of "don't give panhandlers money, but offer to buy them a meal" ... Chris and I came out of a San Francisco restaurant with an apparently homeless guy sitting on the sidewalk. He wasn't begging, but we gave him our doggie bag (box) which he proceeded to devour.
catblaster
Well-known member
One of the few times I gave in to a pandhandler was to an old Indian (indian with a feather...not indian with a dot) , I was walking into a dive restaurant with my brother and the old indian....we called him Chief, came up and said. "Can you spare a few,? I'm a drunk and I just need a drink"! I replied "me too Chief, here take this" At least he was honest about it and so was I.
I even got thrown out of the bar that Chief headed to and now I look back and think, Hell..I've been thrown into better places than that!!
I even got thrown out of the bar that Chief headed to and now I look back and think, Hell..I've been thrown into better places than that!!
R
rls7201
Guest
kdbgoat said:
Cigarettes helped keep me off of other drugs. I recognized the fact that I was addicted to nicotine and didn't have the will power to quit. With that thought in mind, I wouldn't dare try any other drugs, for fear that I wouldn't have the will power to quit. After 43 years of smoking, I finally found what I needed to quit at age 56.
And while I'm here I would like to offer a quote from Dr. Ben Carson.
"If you meet someone living on the streets who has no home, no car and very little if any money, and you were able to convince him that if he met you in Bismark, North Dakota, in 72 hours that you would give him $1 million dollars, I can virtually assure you that he would find a way to get there. People can generally find a way to do what ever they want to do, and they find hundreds of excuses for what they don't want to do."
All this from a man that grew up in the hood, in extreme poverty with a single parent and achieved far beyond most.
Ernie n Tara
Well-known member
Not to beat a dead horse ... Ah what the hell here goes! I also grew up on the wrong side of the tracks in poverty, but I learned no one was going to push me anywhere I didn't expend the energy to go. I found there is always a job if you will take it; washing dishes wasn't much fun, but it was my second full time job (the first was assistant elevator operater; I was fired for believing them when they told me I was too young to operate it!).
Since then I've moved up by the simple mechanism of showing up every day on time, studying the requirements of the next job, and fullfilling them. Sixty-four years later I retired from a well paid position as Division Manager with enough savings for a comfortable retirement. So, no I don't have any sympathy for able bodied beople begging on street corners or their ilk.
Ernie
One symptom of the problem: During the early 70's I owned and operated a service station and garage where I typically hired and trained younger men as mechanics. In one case a very promising youngster was learning fast and doing well financially (earning an average of about $600 a week; a very good income at that time). Unfortunately, he married! The new wife insisted he quit that "dirty job" and take a position as a sales clerk at Sears.
Since then I've moved up by the simple mechanism of showing up every day on time, studying the requirements of the next job, and fullfilling them. Sixty-four years later I retired from a well paid position as Division Manager with enough savings for a comfortable retirement. So, no I don't have any sympathy for able bodied beople begging on street corners or their ilk.
Ernie
One symptom of the problem: During the early 70's I owned and operated a service station and garage where I typically hired and trained younger men as mechanics. In one case a very promising youngster was learning fast and doing well financially (earning an average of about $600 a week; a very good income at that time). Unfortunately, he married! The new wife insisted he quit that "dirty job" and take a position as a sales clerk at Sears.
Isaac-1
Well-known member
garyb1st said:
My 20 something (almost 30) year old son has narcolepsy which is also treated with similar amphetamine based medications (Adderall in his case) and it is much the same as you mention above as the brains of people with narcolepsy don't process stimulants the same way normal people do. For example drinking things with caffeine will put him to sleep.
Molaker
Well-known member
It seems so obvious, so simple. Just get a job and work your way up. Many/most of us did just that. But, many/most of us had the support of family and friends. Today is somewhat different, however. Just try to get a job with no home address and no phone, not to mention, no transportation. I think you will find very few possible employers willing to take on such an employee.
I don?t know the answer to the homeless problem, whether drug caused or not. But, I?m pretty sure the only way out and up for most homeless is society?s assistance. Call it welfare or charity or whatever, but if we expect any improvement, we need step up. If we are satisfied with ignoring the problem or just giving a handout at street corners and then feeling good about it, then we should not expect any improvement.
I don?t know the answer to the homeless problem, whether drug caused or not. But, I?m pretty sure the only way out and up for most homeless is society?s assistance. Call it welfare or charity or whatever, but if we expect any improvement, we need step up. If we are satisfied with ignoring the problem or just giving a handout at street corners and then feeling good about it, then we should not expect any improvement.
ZinLuvR
Well-known member
How well do you think this will do? Seattle, they are now going to give the homeless airline tickets to leave town. I guess they will be one way, duh? Once they arrive at some other city, how long before they get right back to Seattle? Gladly, I don't live in Seattle or have to help foot the bill for this.
Pain meds. I ruined my back over forty years ago for a little background. Insurance is to blame for a lot of the problems. I found that insurance companies will pay for pain meds all day long, they're cheap. After some years and back surgery I talked with my doctor about getting off the pain meds. It had been enough time that I couldn't just stop on my own without possibly having a seizure. The insurance company would not pay to help me stop, but would continue the meds non stop. I found a doctor who would help me pro bono. This doctor worked with meth and heroin addicts. The trick he said was to get you "hooked" on phenobarbital and then get you off the phenobarbital which is easier to quit than meth or heroin. It works, if you want to. On day one you stop all pain meds and switch to the phenobarbital and take as many as you need to stay clam. It is a very strange process to go through. That was about 30 years ago and it works, but again, I wanted of the pain meds they gave me. Not sure if they still do that today, maybe most addicts don't want to quit or they can't afford the doc's to help them quit.
If someone is chasing a high for whatever reason, they are not going to quit, they don't want to. There are ways to get off heroin, mental illness or not. Drugs are to get high, then higher, and then higher yet again, chasing the dragon. Phenobarbital can help you get you off heroin. Staying off is a choice. Life is a flow chart which starts every question with two possibilities, yes or no, a maybe will ruin a flow chart.
I will say that once you've ruined your life with heroin it's very hard to get back on track. They have burnt a lot of bridges. Broken trust with almost everyone around them. No easy fix for that. I remember my first cigarette, it was a choice, a flow chart, I choose yes, but I quit smoking 45 years ago cold turkey, I wanted to quit. Never had a smoke again. Today I'm one of those pain in the ass guys that can't stand the smell of a cigarette.
Just my opinion.
I wonder if Seattle would buy me an airline ticket to Hawaii?
Pain meds. I ruined my back over forty years ago for a little background. Insurance is to blame for a lot of the problems. I found that insurance companies will pay for pain meds all day long, they're cheap. After some years and back surgery I talked with my doctor about getting off the pain meds. It had been enough time that I couldn't just stop on my own without possibly having a seizure. The insurance company would not pay to help me stop, but would continue the meds non stop. I found a doctor who would help me pro bono. This doctor worked with meth and heroin addicts. The trick he said was to get you "hooked" on phenobarbital and then get you off the phenobarbital which is easier to quit than meth or heroin. It works, if you want to. On day one you stop all pain meds and switch to the phenobarbital and take as many as you need to stay clam. It is a very strange process to go through. That was about 30 years ago and it works, but again, I wanted of the pain meds they gave me. Not sure if they still do that today, maybe most addicts don't want to quit or they can't afford the doc's to help them quit.
If someone is chasing a high for whatever reason, they are not going to quit, they don't want to. There are ways to get off heroin, mental illness or not. Drugs are to get high, then higher, and then higher yet again, chasing the dragon. Phenobarbital can help you get you off heroin. Staying off is a choice. Life is a flow chart which starts every question with two possibilities, yes or no, a maybe will ruin a flow chart.
I will say that once you've ruined your life with heroin it's very hard to get back on track. They have burnt a lot of bridges. Broken trust with almost everyone around them. No easy fix for that. I remember my first cigarette, it was a choice, a flow chart, I choose yes, but I quit smoking 45 years ago cold turkey, I wanted to quit. Never had a smoke again. Today I'm one of those pain in the ass guys that can't stand the smell of a cigarette.
Just my opinion.
I wonder if Seattle would buy me an airline ticket to Hawaii?
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