ok, sounds like I just bought more 5th wheel than my truck should handle

[TonyDtorch]

Apparently you and your company are above the law, and to H with the rest of us. Arrogant!

Relax, it was not my company..I was just putting food on the table for my family the best way I could.

I was a union worker, and over the years I worked for many large publicly traded corporations,...and they are all the same.

  I hate to make you upset .... but, load cheating is still a very common business practice nationwide.

it's ain't illegal unless you get caught in the business and trucking word, and lawsuits are factored into the cost of corporate business.

I did what I could not to kill anyone and it worked out well... but, you are on your own now. 

 

[OLDRACER]

I was not upset, just making an observation. I have always taught "Drive as if the other guy was out to kill you". Nothing has changed except to get worse.

 

[elm_tx]

I hear everyones concerns, and I will take it to heart.

With that said, when we emptied our 37' fifth wheel into the garage, I don't think I pulled more than 200 - 250lbs of "stuff" out of it. Plenty of which won't go back into the Raptor. We also traveled with a 200lb. generator in the bed of the truck, I won't have that either. I hear the 19k weight of the trailer, but if I'm not mistaken that is with Quads or Motorcycles and such in the garage. For us, the garage will never have much more the 6 cases of beer and a couple of empty coolers. Maybe a 200lb generator, but probably not.

For dry camping purposes it will be used to camp at Texas Motor Speedway for the Nascar and Indy races. We would be traveling with fresh, grey, black and gas tanks empty. I would gas it up just outside of the track and do a fresh water fill at the campsite in the track from mobile fresh water vendors. Everything except excess gasoline would be drained before leaving the track.

This trailer is a little less than 2000lbs more than my last trailer that we towed back and forth since 2006 and never felt out of control. That trailer was originally towed with an 06 2500 with airbags, the 13 has a stiffer suspension so we never felt the need for airbags for it.

The sales people said the 2500 could handle it, I am realistic enough to understand the sales team is more concerned about the sale as opposed to what I should or should not get into.

For those who asked, why a toy hauler if I'm not going to be hauling toys. We were putting 3 - 4 coolers freshly drained in the living room of  the fifth wheel to go home, grass and dirt got into the carpet and the  floors never looked as pristine as we would have liked. I had to get a 200lb generator into the bed of the truck and over the hitch by myself. I could/can do it, but I'm not getting younger and never know when that little process will take a toll. We thought we could just roll it into the garage, until we realized  they came with onboard generators and gas tanks. No more gas cans to deal with either.

Bottom line, we will never really use the trailer to it's fullest potential. I would like a motorcycle, that's the one thing my wife swears will get us a divorce, I don't plan to chance that.

Thanks for everyones feedback. I am paying attention.
Eddie

 

[steveblonde]

the bottom line is 100lbs over weight no biggie 200lbs over weight still no biggie we have all done it my self included - i think the real issue is then you start hitting 1500 lbs over on a capacity of 2700 lbs now your banging on 55-60% over not 1%  - do truckers run 40% over? nope never 10% yep all day i will bet  20% yep but not 40% not a chance.  Which is why i did my homework before buying the trailer - i knew what i wanted and made a plan - having said that to ELM do your self a favor and a really REALLY big one - go get a new set of rear springs installed and a set of air bags with a compressor and a wireless remote so you can adjust the pressure and get them installed - cost maybe $2000 TOPS - will you be "legal" NOPE will you be SAFER YES - diff between a 2500 and a 3500 is a spring pac and a decal from Transport will you avoid a boat load of issues YES all day

 

[TCDNVUSA]

Howdy,

Something else to consider when matching a tow vehicle to a trailer is your insurance and personal liability.

My insurance agent told me that there have been several cases of an accident involving a truck and RV trailer where the truck is over GVW the driver was issued a ticket  by the investigating law enforcement agency.  The insurance company walked from any responsibility due to the negligence of the owner/driver!

Is it worth it?

YMMV,

tom n tyler

 

[SargeW]

True story that happened to me many moons ago when I was working for a cement contractor doing concrete set up and pour work. I took a one ton flat bed with a lumber rack, and pulling a 20' lumber trailer behind loaded with 2X12 16' boards used for setting house foundations through a set of scales on the 91 freeway in So. Cal.  I had been through several times before with no issues, but not that day.  I got red lighted and went inside to the counter.

It seems that the lumber trailer was loaded too heavy for the rated weight on the tires, and he cited me and said I couldn't leave the scale parking area until I corrected it. I had to unload about 20 panels from the lumber trailer onto the lumber rack on the truck to get under weight.  The interesting part was when the officer told me that as a normal practice they would let you be 10% over on your weights and let you off with a warning.  Any more than that and the 10% was counted back in, and your over weight ticket was counted from the first pound you were over weight. 

The boss wound up paying the weight ticket and putting heavier tires on the trailer, as I had loaded it under his direction. I don't know if the 10% policy is still used or not, but it did seem reasonable, even then.

 

[TonyDtorch]

Howdy,

Something else to consider when matching a tow vehicle to a trailer is your insurance and personal liability.

My insurance agent told me that there have been several cases of an accident involving a truck and RV trailer where the truck is over GVW the driver was issued a ticket  by the investigating law enforcement agency.  The insurance company walked from any responsibility due to the negligence of the owner/driver!

Is it worth it?

YMMV,

tom n tyler

and the same can be said for driving a vehicle without the proper drivers license.  You will be considered at fault in an accident.


How many of you CA regular old pickup truck drivers are towing a 5th wheel weighing more than 10K ?  do you have a Class B license ?

or,... a 5th wheel weighing more that 15K ,  do you have a Class A ?    ...Well guess what, you are not properly licensed.



everyone else better check your home state and see.

you may have the correct license to drive that 3500 Ram pickup.... but sometimes as soon as you hook a trailer on it the laws change.

( is it worth it ? )

 

[steveblonde]

and the same can be said for driving a vehicle without the proper drivers license.  You will be considered at fault in an accident.


How many of you CA regular old pickup truck drivers are towing a 5th wheel weighing more than 10K ?  do you have a Class B license ?

or,... a 5th wheel weighing more that 15K ,  do you have a Class A ?    ...Well guess what, you are not properly licensed.



everyone else better check your home state and see.

you may have the correct license to drive that 3500 Ram pickup.... but sometimes as soon as you hook a trailer on it the laws change.

( is it worth it ? )

we just went through this and you even posted


http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml

Commercial Driver's License
When discussing driver's license requirements for large RV's, the Commercial Driver's License (CDL) topic often follows closely behind. To answer common questions about the CDL, we have compiled the following summary:
CDL is administered by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA)
FMCSA defines minimum requirements that all states must meet when issuing CDL's
States are free to define more stringent CDL rules
FMCSA regulations only address commercial motor vehicles (CMV)
RV's used strictly for recreational and other non-commercial functions do not meet the FMCSA definition of a CMV
Federal Class A & B CDL Requirements
Disclaimer: All content as is, no warranty. More ?

FMCSA defines several CDL classes based on vehicle weight, type, and cargo. While most states do not require a CDL for driving large RV's, some do require special non-commercial licenses structured after the federal classification. The two classes applicable to RV's are A & B, which are defined below:
Class A: Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
Class B: Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

 

[elm_tx]

the bottom line is 100lbs over weight no biggie 200lbs over weight still no biggie we have all done it my self included - i think the real issue is then you start hitting 1500 lbs over on a capacity of 2700 lbs now your banging on 55-60% over not 1%  - do truckers run 40% over? nope never 10% yep all day i will bet  20% yep but not 40% not a chance.  Which is why i did my homework before buying the trailer - i knew what i wanted and made a plan - having said that to ELM do your self a favor and a really REALLY big one - go get a new set of rear springs installed and a set of air bags with a compressor and a wireless remote so you can adjust the pressure and get them installed - cost maybe $2000 TOPS - will you be "legal" NOPE will you be SAFER YES - diff between a 2500 and a 3500 is a spring pac and a decal from Transport will you avoid a boat load of issues YES all day

Thanks, airbags I had thought of, new springs I had not. We pick the trailer up today, I'm real interested to see how it sits and feels going down the road. I will start looking at springs, would you suggest the dealership or an aftermarket truck accessory shop? $2k - $4k to have a safer setup is not a big deal, a whole new truck is a different story.

No one has ever said anything about a different drivers license, looking at TXDOT, seems I probably need a class A. What is the difference between qualifying for a Class A as opposed to a Class C? Do I have to show up with my fifth wheel and prove I know how to tow it, or is it all test questions?

 

[steveblonde]

after market for sure - just about every major center will have a spring shop - all they are doing really is adding a leaf to stiffen it up it should only be a few hundred bucks - not not a lot
cheers

 

[TonyDtorch]

after market for sure - just about every major center will have a spring shop - all they are doing really is adding a leaf to stiffen it up it should only be a few hundred bucks - not not a lot
cheers

Steve,
is there any aftermarket helper spring kits that he could just order online ?

Did you say the axle/brakes are the same. what about any difference in wheel/tire ratings ?

what about a dualy conversion ...wheels tires and fender flairs ?

 

[steveblonde]

Steve,
is there any aftermarket helper spring kits that he could just order online ?

Did you say the axle/brakes are the same. what about any difference in wheel/tire ratings ?

what about a dualy conversion ...wheels tires and fender flairs ?

I am sure you can you order anything on line, the box though on a new style truck is molded and formed not like the old trucks that just had flares attatched, a rear end you could get from a srap yard no issues

Springs - 2 choices scrap yard of course or you can use super springs

http://www.supersprings.com/

Supersprings are like a spring overload when you hook up the trailer they increase your capabilty by "sliding" into place and sliding out when not in use , they are inexpensive and work well BUT they are not adjustable typically they increase load abilty by a couple thousand pounds

 

[garyb1st]

Weigh the trailer when you pick it up.  Weigh the truck after you get it ready to tow.  Then you'll know how much you are over the weight ratings.  When you load the trailer, if possible, put everything behind the axles.  It may not do much but it should take some of the weight off the hitch.  Also, if your water tank is behind the axle, fill it with water.  That will increase the weight of the trailer but will also shift weight to the rear and hopefully off the hitch.  Then hook your trailer up to your truck and take it to the scales.  Weigh the front and rear axle of the truck and you'll know how much the truck is over weight and how much the rear axle is over weight.  May not be as bad as you think.  If you think you have a problem with over loading your tires, consider larger, higher rated tires.  When your done, if your uncomfortable with the numbers, take your truck to a knowledgable hitch guy and ask what you can do. 

My 2005 Ford F250 was similar to yours but had a long bed.  Dry weight with me and partial load of fuel was 7,600 lbs.  Gross was 10,000lbs.  So net carrying capacity was 2,600 lbs.  The CAT Scale weights were steer axle 4660 and the drive axle 2940.  The combined gross axle weight rating according to Fleet.Ford.com is 11,200 to 12,000 lbs.  The rear axle gross rating is 6,100 lbs.  So in my situation, theoretically I could carry 3,500 lbs in the box before exceeding the rear axle gross weight rating.  I'd definitely be over the gross vehicle weight rating but I doubt the springs would break and the tires would melt.  The tires on my F250 were rated at 3,100 lbs a piece.  That's 12,400 for the truck and 6,200 on each axle. 

Now I'm not advocating you drive with weight significantly exceeding the ratings, but I'm not convinced you would have major problems.  Don't know about GMC/Chevy, but there's not much difference between the F250 and F350.  Another leaf and larger tires and maybe a different axle.  But according to Ford,  Gross Axle Weight Rating is determined by the rated capacity of the minimum component of the axle system (axle, computer- selected springs, wheels, tires) of a specific vehicle.  To me that says if the tires are rated at 3100 lbs each, then the rear axle and all components are rated for at least 6,200 lbs.  Some of the folks don't care much for my logic but I've given this subject a great deal of thought and there are tons of RVers out their pulling trailers that are technically too heavy.  Maybe there are some stats that prove what some are saying, but I haven't found any.  Another thing I suspect is the 10,000 GVWR of these trucks is based more on licensing laws than the actual weight carrying ability of the truck.  In some states, a truck over 10,000 lbs is considered commercial and thus taxed at a higher rate. 

 

[steveblonde]

Weigh the trailer when you pick it up.  Weigh the truck after you get it ready to tow.  Then you'll know how much you are over the weight ratings.  When you load the trailer, if possible, put everything behind the axles.  It may not do much but it should take some of the weight off the hitch.  Also, if your water tank is behind the axle, fill it with water.  That will increase the weight of the trailer but will also shift weight to the rear and hopefully off the hitch.  Then hook your trailer up to your truck and take it to the scales.  Weigh the front and rear axle of the truck and you'll know how much the truck is over weight and how much the rear axle is over weight.  May not be as bad as you think.  If you think you have a problem with over loading your tires, consider larger, higher rated tires.  When your done, if your uncomfortable with the numbers, take your truck to a knowledgable hitch guy and ask what you can do. 

My 2005 Ford F250 was similar to yours but had a long bed.  Dry weight with me and partial load of fuel was 7,600 lbs.  Gross was 10,000lbs.  So net carrying capacity was 2,600 lbs.  The CAT Scale weights were steer axle 4660 and the drive axle 2940.  The combined gross axle weight rating according to Fleet.Ford.com is 11,200 to 12,000 lbs.  The rear axle gross rating is 6,100 lbs.  So in my situation, theoretically I could carry 3,500 lbs in the box before exceeding the rear axle gross weight rating.  I'd definitely be over the gross vehicle weight rating but I doubt the springs would break and the tires would melt.  The tires on my F250 were rated at 3,100 lbs a piece.  That's 12,400 for the truck and 6,200 on each axle. 

Now I'm not advocating you drive with weight significantly exceeding the ratings, but I'm not convinced you would have major problems.  Don't know about GMC/Chevy, but there's not much difference between the F250 and F350.  Another leaf and larger tires and maybe a different axle.  But according to Ford,  Gross Axle Weight Rating is determined by the rated capacity of the minimum component of the axle system (axle, computer- selected springs, wheels, tires) of a specific vehicle.  To me that says if the tires are rated at 3100 lbs each, then the rear axle and all components are rated for at least 6,200 lbs.  Some of the folks don't care much for my logic but I've given this subject a great deal of thought and there are tons of RVers out


their pulling trailers that are technically too heavy.  Maybe there are some stats that prove what some are saying, but I haven't found any.  Another thing I suspect is the 10,000 GVWR of these trucks is based more on licensing laws than the actual weight carrying ability of the truck.  In some states, a truck over 10,000 lbs is considered commercial and thus taxed at a higher rate.

Gary you are more right than you think, the only issue is with the Chev/Gmc the Only diff between the 2500 and 3500 is a spring nothing else, tires on a 2500 are 18 or 20 load rating and only 18 on a 3500. on the diesel its the same rear end on both 3.73

 

[elm_tx]

after market for sure - just about every major center will have a spring shop - all they are doing really is adding a leaf to stiffen it up it should only be a few hundred bucks - not not a lot
cheers

I see where you were talking about SuperSprings, is this what you were thinking would be helpful on my truck or just another leaf? The local truck shops close early on Saturday so can't get any feedback from them until Monday.

Also, airbags, I used AirLift on my previous truck and was/am happy with them and their on board air compressor. Anything new that is worth looking at?

The truck did take a big squat when I dropped  the fifth wheel on it, a much bigger squat than I expected. I won't be taking it back out until I  beef up the suspension.

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

Eddie

 

[steveblonde]

hi eddie i was hoping you would repost i bet that was quite the squat lol you can do a leaf and bags but not supersprings and bags

if i were you i would add a leaf and add bags my 2013 3500 still drops a good 3 or four inches without airbags - i have towed without them np however i prefer to use the bags with 50lbs - 55lbs

firestone kit 2528 std 9284 compressor mounted to the frame with a wireless dual remote - always keep 10 lbs in the bags or they tear
cheers

 

[Frizlefrak]

I have a 2013 Chevy 2500 Diesel Crew Cab 4x4 short bed.
I bought a 2015 Raptor 375TS with no plans to put 'TOYS" in the garage.
I pretty much only travel within 250 miles of Houston Tx, no plans to head across county

What are your thoughts, did I buy too much  trailer, or for my purposes, I should be ok. Don't really want to buy a new truck, will add air bags if that will help.

Thanks
Eddie

Here are my thoughts:

Sell your truck and buy a 3500 dually.  It doesn't have to be brand new.  It doesn't have to be a diesel (though if you ever tow in the mountains, they're nice).  Maybe you can find one a couple years older than yours without feeling the sting too badly.

I've been accused of being a lieutenant in the weight police, but to be fair, I agree with the others.  If 12,000 lbs were hypothetically your limit, the thing won't break into million pieces at 12,100 but be 100% fine at 11,990.  But as mentioned, you're over by a significant margin.  A lot of ways that could end badly.  Start shopping Craigslist and eBay....a lot of times people decide to get out of RVing for whatever reason and have this big dually they no longer need.  Or see if you local dealer has something nice on the used lot that they will trade you into.  Or treat yourself to a new one...but whatever you do, get into a bigger truck before you pull that trailer.  Your current combo isn't safe.

 

[Lou Schneider]

How many of you CA regular old pickup truck drivers are towing a 5th wheel weighing more than 10K ?  do you have a Class B license ?

or,... a 5th wheel weighing more that 15K ,  do you have a Class A ?    ...Well guess what, you are not properly licensed

Assuming you mean the state of California the non-commercial Class B license covers motorhomes over 40 ft. long or 26,000 lbs GVWR.  It does not give you any trailer towing privileges beyond the basic Class C license.

The non-commercial Class A license covers bumper pull trailers over 10,000 lbs. or fifth wheels over 15,000 lbs. GVWR.

 

[TonyDtorch]

Assuming you mean the state of California the non-commercial Class B license covers motorhomes over 40 ft. long or 26,000 lbs GVWR.  It does not give you any trailer towing privileges beyond the basic Class C license.

The non-commercial Class A license covers bumper pull trailers over 10,000 lbs. or fifth wheels over 15,000 lbs. GVWR.

The point was,  very few guys here in CA with pickup trucks here have a Class B or A,  but many of them have a nice big 5th wheels. I'll bet not many of those loaded down toyhauler 5th wheel trailers weigh less than 10k.

the good news is....chances are you will never be checked for a proper drivers license.

 

[elm_tx]

Ok, here is where I'm at.

Firestone airbags w/on board air compressor was installed today. Went down to storage and ran the air bags up to 80#'s. The truck went up SEVERAL inches, didn't have a tape at the time, dropped the Raptor on it and it dropped about ~2 inches as opposed to ~5 inches with no bags. Looked level. With no bags the leaf springs were pretty much flat, with the bags, they had plenty of curve with about 2 inches between the lowest leaf and the rest. This was just a visual test, plan to take it down the road for a few miles this weekend to see how it feels, I know how it felt before and REALLY did not like it.

As far as adding an additional leaf to the springs, the truck shops I've talked with down here have shot that idea down as not necessary if I have bags. I put 80#'s of pressure in the bags, once I dropped the trailer on the truck it registered 95#'s. The bags are supposed to add 5,000# of weight capacity at 100#'s of air pressure. Which in theory puts me past a 1 ton.

What is the advantage of adding the additional leaf? My 06 2500 had air bags and I ran them at 80#'s, don't recall them ever going to 95#'s once the old  trailer was on the hitch.

Buying a different truck is not in the cards at this point, unless this thing just really feels unsafe.

I do appreciate everyone's feedback.

Thanks
Eddie